Maybe its time to take over and get the facts instead of every one guessing. Where is Ross and his Charts? THe fear factor on each side is outta control.

Great idea. If the Democrats were smart..... HAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahaha sorry.

Though they are culpable in part it's actually more than just the insurers, Nick. The whole system is screwed. Doctors are rewarded monetarily by hospitals for the number of procedures they do and tests they order. There's no financial incentive to be conservative about it. Tons of unneeded and unhelpful treatments are administered all the time. Until doctors are rewarded by for the outcomes of their work instead of the quantity of it, I can't see costs coming down in a meaningful way.

Someone else had said that doctors aren't making a lot of money any more. That's only half true. General Practitioners get paid remarkably little by insurance companies and half to make up for it by giving patients 10 minutes of their time instead of an hour, or ordering lots of tests. There's no emphasis on preventive care because they can't afford to take the time. Specialists on the other hand make huge incomes these days. And while it's true they went to school longer and should make somewhat more, the gap between the salaries is immense.

Healthcare for profit does NOT work. There's overwhelming proof of it now.

Jeff, so sorry about your wife's condition. My father is a dialysis patient and it's no walk in the park. I hope she does well.
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I never implied freedom or equality was an opinion.
I believe in them whole heartedly.
I just disagree with your OPINION of how best to handle this health care situation.

I find your implication that if I disagree with you then I don't cherish freedom insulting, infantile and non-sequitur.

The two things have nothing in common.

"everyone is screaming, no one is listening, details are non existent and you are an idiot unless you fall into lock step with one side or another."

This is the effect of right-wing propaganda. No. You are "an idiot" unless you are in favor of healthcare reform *with a public option*. There are not two reasonable sides, there's one side with a debate over how to do it and another side of screaming morons who have been manipulated by insurance companies. (Strictly speaking the insurance companies not "idiots," they just want to continue lining their pockets.)

And this is an abuse of democracy, not democracy in action. It's much harder to do something constructive than it is to shout it down or destroy it. And just because there are two sides doesn't mean that they're both equal. This is why we have a divided country: the right is totally wrong about every last issue. You can see it in this thread, we saw it for eight years under Bush 2 and before that under Reagan.

Arguing points of view, especially simplistic ones (as all conservative ones are) is easy. I've even heard liberals against the Iraq war being called "negative" - we're going in there and killing people and they're so negative about it! We're haters because we don't want a war for oil!

So zrocks, go here and read the bill that's gone through House committees - not the final one, but this is what the debate is over - if you think the details aren't there:

http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf

Dan - no question, there's more to it than insurance. But the place to focus is insurance, and without that the whole house of cards falls down.

Jeff - Ed is absolutely not a liberal Glen Beck, just as Keith Olberman isn't a liberal Bill O'Reilly. Olberman is arrogant and annoying, but what he says is almost always right even if it is over the top. It's impossible for someone to come up with liberal things to say that are totally inflammatory and jerky 100% of the time, because reality intrudes; that is only the domain of the right. Ed only looks like a conservative talk show asshole.

On the island of Kobey Japan, there life expectancy is way over the world average with no AMA. They smoke and do lots of AMA considered bad things, how is that possable without dental care and american type docters? What about the Amish? They seem to be doing quite well without electrisity and whatever medical machine that uses it.

Any time we give our soverinity to some one else were going to get screwed..... Forcing EVERYONE into that is wrong and non of us will like it.....

We have to get back to taking responsibility for ourselves.

If you want to plan on falling apart at a certain point in your future, I have no problem with that, I am sure you will get your wish.

Did anyone here like being a dependant? I didn't, I considered emancapation at 14 making as much money as my dad then a week and paying for my private schooling, my choice.

Getting pants, shoes, shirts and just general stuff from my, very hip, mom most of the time was off my mark. I had 'my' own ideas, she had good intentions, but still off the mark.

So you want me to rely on a stranger??????? NO WAY. I rely on me....

Then I misinterpreted your comment. My apologies.

As far as health care reform, I am for waiting to see the details of the legislation, understanding what it means to me, then either supporting it or not. I find the screeching support and shrill demonization typical moronic behavior by the people who elect idiots.

If you disagree with this, not a problem.

Generally speaking, government programs end up restricting freedom and in some cases promote bias and bigotry. No matter what the intention, I can not support bigotry and I think institutional bigotry is a crime.

Government support of inequality and restriction of freedoms tends to be black and white (digital) - thus opinions have less merit. You usually end up defending the intent rather than the actual process.

"Any time we give our soverinity to some one else were going to get screwed..... Forcing EVERYONE into that is wrong and non of us will like it....."

That's what that total C U Next Tuesday Dick Armey says. He doesn't like Social Security, Medicare - basically screw you I'm okay. No compassion, just "I don't want to pay taxes because I make lots of money."

This is a total shite ideology, and it couldn't possibly work.

I LIKE Social Security and Medicare, damn it, and so does everyone who benefits from those programs. To hell with the radical right - these are social programs that work.

So does the FDIC, by the way - it's another reason why we aren't in another Great Depression.

Socialism with a capital S is obviously not a good system. But the other extreme is probably worse.

Isn't this the bottom line of the debate? Who takes care of Whom?

I am dealing with a family right now that doesn't want to deal with a belligerent mom. They want the state to deal with her instead of paying for it themselves and they have found a way to do so. I can understand that - but if they have the ability to care for her, why can't they? Its more like lazy and selfish. We have not always pawned our family off on others. It is nice to do that? sure. but why should you and I have to take care of someone elses issues financially?

What was the reason to create Social Security?? wasn't it to create jobs for younger people?



Why are they mutually exclusive? It sounds like capitalism is cruel and never socially responsible?