Sorry for the long one but if I don't tell you what I have, it might confuse things. I just bought (used) the following.

Mac G4: -Dual 500 MHz Processors
-512 MB SD100 RAM
-40 GB ATA HD (7200 RPM)
-CD ROM/DVD RAM Drive (writes 4.7 GB of data on a single DVD disc – great for back up!)-56 K – V.90 Apple Internal Modem -3 yr. Apple Care Ex. Warranty (2 plus yrs. remaining)-Running OS 9(Purchase date: Oct./00 - still has the plastic on the outside)CDRW: -Plextor: "Plexwriter 12x4x32" SCSI (external- blue & silver)
(Purchase date: Mar./01)A/V Drive: -Adaptec 39160 Two Channel Ultra III 160 SCSI PCI Card (160 MB/sec per channel)
-Seagate "Cheetah" 9 GB Ultra III 160 SCSI HD (internal)(160 MB/sec. – 10 000 RPM)
Software: (among other non-music Software) -Adaptec "Toast 4 Deluxe" (CD writing software)-Connectix "Virtual PC" (run Windows 98 SE and all Windows software)
-"AppleWorks 6.0"
-Datavis "MacLink Plus DELUXE" converts all formats toMac
-Cassedy&Greene "SoundJam MP Plus" (plays and converts to MP3 format)

I have Digital Timepiece (never had it hooked up), the Da7 of course,XT-20 Adats (I'd like to keep one), and I soon will have Midi Timepiece with USB, and Motu 2408MkII and Digital Performer 3.0. My questions: How do I hook this up? What else do I need? This is a daring move for me since I presently don't have the "chops" but am eager to learn. Thanks.

Hi Carl..Guess who?...lol...One quick piece of info, please -what cards do you have in your DA7? This will allow me to give you the hookup scenario for the 2408, and the XT.
A quick rundown of my setup might give you a picture of how it's done. First of all, I have 3 TDIF cards in my DA7. These are connected to the 2408 breakout box using, you guessed it, 3 TDIF cables. The ADATs are of course, hooked up to the 2408 via litepipe, and the ADAT sync cable goes straight to the Digital Timepiece. Once you have that all hooked up, you'll need to run your word clock cable. Buy the best cable you can afford. I'd recommend Apogee Wyde Eye 75 ohm word clock cables. The 3 meter cables cost approx $50 each, but this is arguably the most important purchase you're going to make. I'd assume that the Digital timepiece will be your word clock master. You'll need to run cable from the 2408 to the DTP, and from the DA7 to it also.
As far as the midi timepiece, that's pretty obvious....I'm sure I've left out a ton of info you need, but all of the staff here at DA7.com (ha ha)will be glad to pitch in, and make your stay as comfy as possible!!

It still amazes me that people who wish to record with a computer will often buy a bunch of stuff and then try to figure out how, or if, it will work together.

You list a bunch of audio gear that you soon will have. Have you done any research to see how these items play together? Sure, they all plug into a Mac, but that's hardly enough information on which to base a purchase decision.

Will these devices plug together? Yes. Will they work? Perhaps. Will you encounter problems that are difficult to track down? Very likely.

Envoid may be able to help because he has a similar setup, but similar is not identical. Most of the problems with computers happen because no two are alike unless you take extreme care to ensure that they are. Had you considered duplicating someone's setup that you know works well?

But his recommendation of cables is laughable when you have no idea how any of this equipment will work together. Why worry about cable brands at this point? You didn't do your homework, and you spent money, probably because you believed others when they said everything would be easy. Now when you do that homework, you have an incentive to put in the time and think carefully: you have real money at stake.

Ahhh, I dunno. I'll just get off my soapbox. But let me say that after almost 30 years as a computer professional, I opted for dedicated recording equipment, because I know how troublesome the computer recording systems can be. No way I want to spend my time chasing problems...

[This message has been edited by rick (edited 08-18-2001).]

Rick - First of all, my "laughable" recommendations are a proven, working solution for exactly THAT selection of equipment. I don't know why you would find it necessary to insult me as part of your disdain for a mixed application approach to DAW recording. Quite a few of the DA7 users on this site happen to own this same setup. A computer (whether PC or MAC), a 2408 and a couple of ADATs. The cable recommendations I made are based on YEARS of use, not a couple of months. And I've recorded extensively, for years, in facilities large small, public private,etc...It might not work for you, BUT I can say with 100% certainty that I wouldn't sneer at your choice of medium.

Envoid, don't take too much offense... I had written a reply much like Rick's and decided to delete it.

I've been doing this for 30 years, much like Rick, and it always amazes me that most of the users here think they can spend $10k to $20k on a bunch of wires and current technology and everything's gonna be great!

There is SO MUCH VOODOO in getting this stuff to work right... it's not at all like the grand ol' days of analog where the only thing you had to worry about was a ground loop or something. I've spent well over $300k on my DAW systems and STILL have bizarre crashes and hangs and stuff NOT working. There isn't any proven way to "hook it up this way and everything will be great".

Carl, DO NOT QUIT asking for help here. There's lots of people that have been in the same place as you, yet don't have any guarantee that the way they fixed it for them, will be the way they can fix it for you! This gear doesn't always work the way it says in the manual... there are WAY TOO MANY variables in your studio that aren't in mine.



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ERIC SEABERG • San Diego, CA
eseaberg@home.com

Thanks, Eric.

Envoid, I didn't intend to insult you by characterizing your comment as "laughable." My phrasing was bad: the intent was not to dismiss your suggestion as being stupid.

Rather, my intention was more to call out your suggestion of cable brands as being far beyond where Carl is at this time. One analogy might be advising a student pilot about a trick to fly a smoother approach in, say, Hong Kong with a 747...when he's not finished his first flying lesson.

And, Carl, don't let my rantings dissuade you from continuing to ask questions in this forum. People here know I offer constructive, useful suggestions more often than I get on my soapbox.

Envoid, a couple of adats, a 2408 and "a computer" isn't your exact configuration. It is conceptually the same, which is not REALLY the same. I have a Volvo V70. Is it the same as all others? No, but it's closer than my computer is to any other person's computer. It differs in very minor ways from all others. Its total mileage, its fuel economy, the tires and their wear, the battery condition, even the wear patterns in the seats. Conceptually, it's the same as all other Volvo V70s. But it isn't identical to any other one.

When I say exact, I mean exact. Every bit of hardware in the computer, and identical versions of ALL software. No changes. The minute someone changes something, including any version upgrade, then the configurations are different. And that's 90% of the problem in debugging software and hardware troubles.

Conceptually similar or "almost the same" doesn't make it with computers. You may not agree, but agreement is of little value when you're dealing with computer systems. You said "A computer (whether PC or MAC)..." You know better than to assume that they work the same way. The difference between Intel and Mac systems is so great that one cannot even be sure that an application program on one platform is even built from the same source code base as on the other. The result is different versions for both platforms: both may behave differently and have different bugs. Nothing is the same on these systems except the external audio hardware!

[This message has been edited by rick (edited 08-18-2001).]

Point taken, but I hasten to add that Carl only asked for assistance in hooking up his components. Giving him a basic rundown of the cables he will need to attach the items he described, in order for him to even BEGIN was my intention, which I think was clearly obvious. We've all been at this long enough to know that someone at the beginning of this journey has a long row to hoe. Frightening him, or should I say discouraging is not what we're supposed to be here for. Rick, I should have stated that I had already spoken to Carl via e-mail, a couple of times, where I answered his questions regarding standalone recording systems. Radar, the MX2424, and the HDR2496 were mentioned. I was surprised when he told me he had purchased the Mac, but since it was his decision to make, I saw no need to discourage him. He's going to learn, as we all did, the incompatabilities, the crashes, lost data, ad nauseum.
Personally, I'm building my 4th DAW now. I only hope that I've learned enough to do it right this time. Unfortunately, by the time I pay for the parts, they'll already be well on their way to obsolescence...lol.I'm only too aware of the pitfalls of motherboards, chipsets, software, and incompatability.
Carl...I hope you won't let this outburst even give you a milliseconds pause. As is painfully obvious, we're all passionate in our pursuits, and will lock horns occaisionally. For the greater good, usually.
envoid

Eric I think analog is every bit as VODO as digital and probablly much more radionic than digital is (outside influences effecting the analog circut) like human thought patterns.
H

Wow, thanks for the replies, I guess. I have
checked to see what others have and have settled for the above after talking for about two years to a friend who has almost the identical setup mentioned above (he has a G3), which works very well for him. I'm hoping to get him here to help set it up and he has offered to walk me through it, even if he can't make it in person. No, I don't think it will be easy. It seems that everyone else has trials too. I've continued to ask others, in case other people had ideas that would help, not because I have doubted what others said. I wanted a pool of experience. As people point out, there are so many variables. This used G4 came my way and I had to decide like, NOW - The alternative to not jumping in is sitting on the sidelines. The Midi Timepiece and the Motu 2408 are the only pieces of equipment I don't have. The computer is something I can always use and I will keep my 3 Adats, Brc, DA7 etc and use it, if it is impossible to get the other working (plan B, I guess) My brother has a computer business, one resource. My other brother operates a commercial studio, and if I sold my house and gave him the money he would help me. i have made a couple great contacts on this site too. I respect all the people who offer their time and help on this site.
CB

Carl, your points are taken. If you don't start now, you might never start. And the computer is always useful as a computer.

Remember that "...almost the same setup..." is just that. Almost. Not the same. You can get close, but you may both encounter different behavior. No amount of thinking can fix these differences, because you can't look deep inside and find out what's really going on.

As for analog being voodoo, it isn't. It's a well-known field, with virtually all of the internal operation completely visible. You can take apart a tape deck and see the components, even replace them one at a time. You can't see software, nor can you see inside custom chips on PCI cards. As for outside influences affecting the circuit (like EMI and ground loops), these fixes are well-known.

Envoid, we didn't know you had been previously corresponding with Carl about the system and computer-based recording. Revealing this changes things dramatically, showing that Carl knows more than his original question indicated, and that you have been advising him. This is very good, but now you see why that lack of communication caused a reaction.

If this were a bunch of us in a room swapping questions and answers, I would've started to say my piece and you'd have immediately corrected me as you just did. But in writing, especially with any time delay, these communications must be made as soon as possible to avoid any adverse reactions. How often have you seen flame wars in newsgroups, simply because people either can't write clearly, fail to give all the facts, or others misinterpret when they read? That's what separates writing from conversation: it's one-sided, one at a time.

Carl,
I think the greatest piece of advice I could give you as one who also has a similar setup, is to spend as much time now learning how works a Mac. Things like a properly honed down extension set, a lean, mean startup disk with as few non-audio apps and hardware as possible would also be of utmost value. Also, having a partitioned drive with alternate startup volumes has been very helpful to me, when experimenting with new software installations. If you add something that negatively messes with your smooth running system, you can "go back" to how it was before. Did I mention you should reload your OS BEFORE you star adding your apps? The standard installation adds tons of useless stuff to bog down and clutter your computer. Reload the OS with the System Disk as a custom install and just install the bare minimum.

As a DP user, I suggest using 9.04 as your OS. Anyhow, learn your Mac.

[This message has been edited by Will Shanks (edited 08-20-2001).]

Definitely not MacOS9.0. But if the G4 came with 9.1, you may not have 9.04 available. Might be fine, might not.

Hi - I just purchased a TRS-80 with 16K on-board and a cassette drive. Have some plug ins and the guy that sold it to me (back of a BMW - but what a deal!) said the machine can talk ADAT! He said he hadn't tried the DA-7 hookup yet but said it shouldn't be to difficult. After he left I realized I didn't get his name. Oh well.....$24,000.00 seemed like a pretty good deal. :0

Did I show my age here or am I just being a jerk?

/Ricache

Okay Carl, here's how you hook it up. I'm not one of those who thinks computers are no good for recording, in fact I think they're pound for pound the best value!

You connect your ADAT to a DA7 lightpipe card using lighptipe both directions.

You connect your 2408 to the DA7 however you want - lightpipe, 8x analog, TDIF - depending on what cards you have. Given a choice, I'd use TDIF or S/PDIF, but lightpipe is the cheapest.

You have to listen to different sync configs to find the one that sounds best. The easiest is to make the Digital Timepiece the master - take word clock out from it to wc in on the DA7, ADAT 9-pin sync to the ADAT, and S/PDIF to the 2408 (because there's only one wc output and you're using it for the DA7; you could just as easily send wc to the 2408 and S/PDIF to the DA7).

You'll need a Griffin G4Port or GeeThree Stealth serial port ($50?) to plug the DTP into the Mac, or you can make it stand-alone and just send MIDI Timecode to the Midi Timepiece, which is of course connected to a USB port on the Mac. That will let Digital Performer see timecode - which you have to set up in FreeMIDI.

You make the Digital Timepiece the sync and address master, in other words. Also, you'll need to send MIDI (for MTC) to the DA7; if you hook up MIDI out from the DA7, you'll be able to use its HUI remote control mode to control Digital Performer.

While I haven't gone into the settings on each device, this is not as complicated as it seems. And with all due respect to Rick and Eric, you haven't made a bad choice of equipment at all. As a matter of fact, I think a DA7 and 2408 system is an excellent choice.

The only reduncancy in your config is the MIDI Timepiece AV and Digital Timepiece. You could get by with just the MTP AV. Send ADAT sync out from the MTP AV to the ADAT, send ADAT sync out from the ADAT to the 2408, and send word clock out from the MTP to the DA7. MIDI gets hooked up the same way as above.

Thanks, Nick.

I wasn't indicting Carl's equipment choices; it was his method of acquiring a bunch of equipment and then trying to find out how (or if) it worked together.

Since he'd been corresponding with Envoid via email, he wasn't being foolhardy.

You know, Nick, you're absolutely right... he HASN'T made a bad choice of gear. In fact, I've written Carl several times offline with recommendations.

I guess I had read Rick's reply and it extended the weird frame I was in... like I said, I deleted the original post I had made!

I'd still recommend keeping the DTP for sync to EVERYTHING. The only reason he needs the MTP is to get USB from the Mac to MIDI. Doesn't the MTP-AV still have issues with MMC?


... can't we all just get along?

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ERIC SEABERG • San Diego, CA
eseaberg@home.com

[This message has been edited by Eric Seaberg (edited 08-20-2001).]

I'm not swinging at you guys! Sorry if it sounded like that.

Anyway, I wasn't aware of the problems with MMC that the MTP AV had. Mine always worked fine, although I rarely used it that way. The only thing is that you don't really need all its "AV" features if you have a DTP - which of course is a fuller featured box.

So I'd say that if Carl has a DTP, he may as well save $200 and get a MIDI Express interface instead of the MTP AV. It still has their MTS (MIDI Time Stamping) system to improve MIDI timing.

Will, I currently have a 450 Mhz G4 running DP with Mac Os 9.04. I will soon get my 733 delivered,(a day or two) and it will probably have 9.1 or possibly 9.2 on it. Have you tried running DP with either of these OS's? Why do you recommend 9.04?

Steve (aka psychoduck)

I've had no problems with system 9.1 running DP, in fact it may be more stable than ever. I believe that whether or not you have stability problems with your system will be affected more by your 3rd party plugs and other system extensions.
So don't worry about it. Use the system that comes with your Mac, unless it's OSX of course.---Dan

You guys are great; thanks for the info. Rick, I know communication is the key, but I tried to avoid overwhelming everyone from the start and left out some important stuff, so it seems. I should have said that I have had contact and emails from many of the "heavies" on this list: Eric, Evoid, Nick and others who are always helpful. AND I am trying to keep the equipment as "similar" as possible to a friend's successful setup. And as Nick just said about the MTP vs the Midi Express, my friend thinks Midi Express XT might be better than the MidiTimepiece, at least for my purpose. DTP will be used for clock since I have it anyway. By the way the OS system in my used G4 is 9.4 and I'm hoping that will work. I'm taking my time and trying to do more research before I buy the final pieces although the Motu 2408 is a must so I may as well go out to the money tree in the backyard. Nick, I'm going to diagram what you said because that was what I was wondering. Now, I'll reread what everyone said. What would we do without this site? Thanks again.
CB

Will, glad to hear that OS 9.4 is okay and the extension sets are important. Thanks for your off-site responses as well, man.
Dan - what is OSX? Your off site responses have really helped too. I must admit, posting on this site is intimidating so I often e-mail privately so at least only one person at a time gets to "laugh". I hope that if off-site emails are a bug, you will say.
CB

OS X is the new OS for Macs. Don't spend any time on it [for studio use] until you see studio software ported to OS X. It's completely different.

I've been working on parts of the IOKit for OS X since the beginning of 1998...that's the day job.

[This message has been edited by rick (edited 08-21-2001).]

Much as I like the look and feel of OSX, I think I'll wait for even a bit more time than when I see the osftware appear. Seems there is always a lenghty 'bug out' period with this stuff. I don't like being the beta tester anymore. I getting a 733 G4 today to replace my G4,(my wife wants it). This was the reason I even asked about different versions of OS9 and DP. I don't want to spend the time downgrading if it's not necessary. I'm also gonna wait until they have this multiprocessor thing DOWN cold. Then I'll get a dual Ghz machine...

Steve

The multiprocessor thing appears to be down cold already. I use a dual 533 and it rocks.

Yup, and OS X really knows how to use MP, unlike MacOS 9. On 9 the app has to do special things to use MP. On X the OS automatically just sucks up all the CPUs and doles 'em out where they're needed.

This is a Good Thing for future MP systems: it means they'll continue to be built. For a while, Apple gave up on MP systems since they weren't really being used fully.

I don't think DP is out yet for OSX, and if it is, it's too new for me to mess with it.

Steve

As far as I know, there is no studio software available for OS X. (This is my observation as an individual, not an Apple employee. I have no contact with any folks involved with third-party support or high-end audio.)

Things like USB and serial are well-known, and working well on OS X. Things like USB speakers work, so perhaps MIDI support will be coming out in the near future. But those are only part of the studio-software picture...

DP is not yet compatible with OSX however, DP 3 does support multiprocessing, and it's processing abilities and speed leave version 2.7 in the dust. And it works great! No need to fear it. --Dan

[This message has been edited by dweiss (edited 08-23-2001).]

Two more questions:
1. Is there a USB version of Midi Express XT? I'll get it instead of the MTP.

2. The DTP will sync everything. Does it run in serial?
I've had it in the box, new for awhile and the software version says v 1.03 which is probably not the most recent. Thanks
CB

Dude! Why not just go to www.MOTU.com and look at their products? Yes, there's a USB version - in fact it has USB and serial connections (as they all do today).

Rick, Emagic's stuff is supposed to ship for OS X next month. I think they're the first out of the gate.