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#58678 - 09/09/06 03:28 PM OT: The genius of Bush
mofca Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/28/02
Posts: 589
Loc: Steubenville OH
Who's more stupid? bush, or the dummies that voted for him....again!!??!!
The Stupidest Things President George W. Bush Has Ever Said

10) "Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take dream." LaCrosse, Wis., Oct. 18, 2000

9) "I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family." Greater Nashua, N.H., Jan. 27, 2000

8) "I hear there's rumors on the Internets that we're going to have a draft." second presidential debate, St. Louis, Mo., Oct. 8, 2004

7) "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." Saginaw, Mich., Sept. 29, 2000

6) "You work three jobs? Uniquely American, isn't it? I mean, that is fantastic that you're doing that." to a divorced mother of three, Omaha (this one i find as disturbing and disgusting as it is silly and stupid. oh those republicans!)

5) "Too many good docs are getting out of the business. Too many OB-GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country." Poplar Bluff, Mo., Sept. 6, 2004

4) "They misunderestimated me." Bentonville, Ark., Nov. 6, 2000

3) "Rarely is the questioned asked: Is our children learning?" Florence, S.C., Jan. 11, 2000

2) "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004 (this one is true, isn't it?)

1) "There's an old saying in Tennessee I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee that says, fool me once, shame on shame on you. Fool me you can't get fooled again." Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002
_________________________
www.innovationstudios.net

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#58679 - 09/09/06 03:51 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
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Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 7162
Loc: El Lay
Feel better?

Here, the genius of Clinton BEFORE the genius of Bush:

"the purpose of government is to rein in the rights of the people"
during an interview on MTV in 1993

"It depends on what the meaning of the words 'is' is." –Bill Clinton, during his 1998 grand jury testimony on the Monica Lewinsky affair

"It depends on how you define alone…" –Bill Clinton, in his grand jury testimony

"The road to tyranny, we must remember, begins with the destruction of the truth." from a speech at the University of Connecticut, Oct 15, 1997

"African-Americans watch the same news at night that ordinary Americans do."
President Clinton on Black Entertainment Television, November 2, 1994

"What's a man got to do to get in the top fifty?" –Bill Clinton, reacting to a survey of journalists that ranked the Monica Lewinsky scandal as the 53rd most significant story of the century

"When I was in England, I experimented with marijuana a time or two, and I didn't like it. I didn't inhale and never tried it again." –Bill Clinton

At a press conference July 21, 1999, Bill Clinton stated:
"John Kennedy had actually not been back to the White House since his father was killed, until I had became president - and first he was on an advisory committee that made a report to me, and he came back to the Oval Office where he saw the desk that he took the famous picture in - you know, coming through the gate, for the first time since he was a little boy."

"Politics gives guys so much power that they tend to behave badly around women. And I hope I never get into that." –Bill Clinton, to a woman friend while he was a Rhodes scholar at Oxford

"It was a real sort of Southern deal. I had AstroTurf in the back. You don't want to know why, but I did." –Bill Clinton, reminiscing about a pickup truck he once owned

"I'm someone who had a deep emotional attachment to 'Starsky and Hutch.'" –Bill Clinton

"Usually briefs." –Bill Clinton, asked during a 1994 MTV town meeting whether he wore boxer shorts or briefs

"The economy has produced 6.1 million jobs since I became president, and if Michael Jordan comes back to the Bulls, it will be 6,100,001 jobs." –Bill Clinton, in 1995

"You'd think he was running for First Lady." –Bill Clinton, on George H. W. Bush's criticism of Hillary Clinton

"I may not have been the greatest president, but I've had the most fun eight years." –Bill Clinton

More?
_________________________
Obama is guilty of fraud and inducement.

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#58680 - 09/09/06 04:00 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
GlennR01 Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 5136
Not for another two and a half years...

Never confuse political point-of-view with competence.

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#58681 - 09/09/06 04:08 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zrocks Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Minneapolis
That was before he fired rider as his speech writer.
_________________________
zrocks for urinal.
Obviously I'm stupid.
And you're a quimbus.

~ Nick Batzdorf

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#58682 - 09/09/06 04:39 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Eric Seaberg Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 1836
Loc: San Diego, CA USA
"I DID NOT HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH THAT WOMAN!"

and then.... he did.


:rolleyes:
_________________________
ERIC SEABERG • San Diego, CA
A.E.S., I.E.E.E., S.M.P.T.E., S.P.A.R.S.

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#58683 - 09/09/06 05:05 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
GlennR01 Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 5136
You guys crack me up. You always know you've gotten to a bunch of Bush apologists when they pull the Clinton card. Think about your logic: there is a marginally mediocre sax player that you hire for an album. You don't like his style. You don't like his musical or political point of view. He shows up late. But, you get thru the session and, although you've made more money on his session then you ever have in your life, you decide not to hire him again. Cool. Then, you work with another musician. Except, this one accidentally erases all your tracks, drops your favorite mic into the toilet, lies on his union card, sues you for defamation of character, burns down your studio, steals your identity and wipes out your credit cards and bank account. But his political point of view is more closely matched to yours. And, every time we get together and discuss what a f*ck-up the second guy is, you feel compelled to complain about the sax player...

Guys, it ain't about his political point of view. If you can't admit that Bush is a failure, look deep inside. You don't have to hire the sax player again, but I won't forget my rusted mic.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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#58684 - 09/09/06 05:10 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
GlennR01 Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 5136
 Quote:
Originally posted by Eric Seaberg:
"I DID NOT HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH THAT WOMAN!"

and then.... he did.


:rolleyes:
Mission Accomplished \:D

Of course, any good Christian would think lying about a blow job trumps lying about weapons of mass destruction - don't hate the sinner, hate the sin ;\) Oh, you didn't hear about Tenent, today, complaining about how he was pressured by the White House to comply with their theory of WMD's in Iraq to justify the war. Check it out, its on Fox...

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#58685 - 09/09/06 07:05 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Dark Star Balla Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 390
Loc: Chicago Bizurbz
Clinton commited adultry at worse, and we don't know what kind of arrangement he and Hilary really has. Now bush?!?! on the other hand Bush "is" commiting perjury, Theft and mass murder for the revenge of the threatening of his father who was another ****ty president. But I digress.

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#58686 - 09/09/06 07:10 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Fieryjack Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/12/03
Posts: 656
Loc: New York
Come on mofca....

I think having had Bush as president for years, we are all aware of his shortcomings, however great or small. The ones you point out are not even worth mentioning - we already know the guy can't speak English.

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#58687 - 09/09/06 07:57 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Dark Star Balla Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 390
Loc: Chicago Bizurbz
 Quote:
Originally posted by zumbido:
Feel better?

Here, the genius of Clinton BEFORE the genius of Bush:

"the purpose of government is to rein in the rights of the people"
during an interview on MTV in 1993

"It depends on what the meaning of the words 'is' is." –Bill Clinton, during his 1998 grand jury testimony on the Monica Lewinsky affair

"It depends on how you define alone…" –Bill Clinton, in his grand jury testimony

"The road to tyranny, we must remember, begins with the destruction of the truth." from a speech at the University of Connecticut, Oct 15, 1997

"African-Americans watch the same news at night that ordinary Americans do."
President Clinton on Black Entertainment Television, November 2, 1994

"What's a man got to do to get in the top fifty?" –Bill Clinton, reacting to a survey of journalists that ranked the Monica Lewinsky scandal as the 53rd most significant story of the century

"When I was in England, I experimented with marijuana a time or two, and I didn't like it. I didn't inhale and never tried it again." –Bill Clinton

At a press conference July 21, 1999, Bill Clinton stated:
"John Kennedy had actually not been back to the White House since his father was killed, until I had became president - and first he was on an advisory committee that made a report to me, and he came back to the Oval Office where he saw the desk that he took the famous picture in - you know, coming through the gate, for the first time since he was a little boy."

"Politics gives guys so much power that they tend to behave badly around women. And I hope I never get into that." –Bill Clinton, to a woman friend while he was a Rhodes scholar at Oxford

"It was a real sort of Southern deal. I had AstroTurf in the back. You don't want to know why, but I did." –Bill Clinton, reminiscing about a pickup truck he once owned

"I'm someone who had a deep emotional attachment to 'Starsky and Hutch.'" –Bill Clinton

"Usually briefs." –Bill Clinton, asked during a 1994 MTV town meeting whether he wore boxer shorts or briefs

"The economy has produced 6.1 million jobs since I became president, and if Michael Jordan comes back to the Bulls, it will be 6,100,001 jobs." –Bill Clinton, in 1995

"You'd think he was running for First Lady." –Bill Clinton, on George H. W. Bush's criticism of Hillary Clinton

"I may not have been the greatest president, but I've had the most fun eight years." –Bill Clinton

More?
Were G Dummy supporters able to think logically their thoughts would go as such "Clinton was not republican but the state of this country economically was a hell of alot better off and progressingh than with this president". But as it seems republicans and the right wing are mere extremists. They confuse patriotism with blind loyalty.

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#58688 - 09/09/06 08:14 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Jeff E Offline
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Registered: 03/01/00
Posts: 2211
Loc: Aptos, CA, USA
I couldn’t help but Laugh.. this was all pretty predictable. If you are a politician you might start out with the right intensions - who knows maybe even some start out to just get ahead - No matter what, by the time you get to the federal level you are guilty of all the above. That is why it is called Politics and all these discussion end up being pushing and shoving in the great sandbox of life.. and in the case of politics it is the cat box of life. Its all full of Crap no matter which perspective you take.
When you have to sit around and find crap about other people to publicize over and over and over and over... it ultimately shows how poorly you see yourself. You have to do it just to make yourself feel better. That goes for Christians , atheists, Agnostics (chicken Atheists) Muslims. Buddhists - What a miserable existence.
If you look at History the Artists have always enacted the start of great Change. Not by sitting around bitching about it like this, but rather showing what life should be like. If you don't like what happens in Washington DC or where ever, do something.
I was at Dave Matthews Band last night.. It was cool in a lot of ways. What caught my attention was the fact that there was an army of people out getting people to register to vote and challenging everyone to make a difference. It wasn’t about "i hate this". It had a cool vibe to it.
With that said, the present political process makes it impossible with any one with real answers and solutions to make a difference. All they want to do is protect their stuff and their $$ - They remind me of the Seagulls in Nemo - MINE MINE MINE.
So, yeah its broken. So... NOW WHAT? Why can't you find something in common to build on rather than harping on the differences? yeah the presidents are losers.. well So am i.. and so are you.. So now what..
Be a part of the Solution rather than part of the problem

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#58689 - 09/09/06 08:39 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Dark Star Balla Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 390
Loc: Chicago Bizurbz
Every instance of change begin with dialogue.

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#58690 - 09/09/06 10:50 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
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Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 7162
Loc: El Lay
Glenn, I'm not apologizing for Bush. I'm way too busy attending Beatlefests.

I was simply dropping a similar list from our most recent Democrat President and showing how easy it is to do.

Instead of Bush-bashing, why can't the Democrats offer up a better person (John Kerry was an embarrassment)? Dumb ol' Bush barely beat out a dumber ol' John Kerry.

This is and has been the Democrats long-standing problem - inability to offer up any better solutions. Their mantra is always 'We have a plan and we'll tell you about AFTER we are in office'.

While I won't be surprised if there is a Democrat as our next President I'll be as equally not surprised if that person is just as lame or worse than Bush.

No recent elections have given the President a clear mandate (except the re-elections of Nixon & Reagan).

The 2008 election will probably be just as muddy.
_________________________
Obama is guilty of fraud and inducement.

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#58691 - 09/10/06 01:37 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
GlennR01 Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 5136
Zum, you may be shocked to find that the person I currently think might do the best job as president in 2008 is a Republican. Again, this has nothing to do with political point of view. But, alas, I am wasting too much time with this issue, time I could be spending attending yet another Fab Faux concert. \:D

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#58692 - 09/10/06 04:04 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Eric Seaberg Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 1836
Loc: San Diego, CA USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by GlennR01:

Of course, any good Christian would think lying about a blow job trumps lying about weapons of mass destruction
I believe Bush made his choices based on information given him. There were lots of people duped by bad information.

Clinton's lying was personal... first hand, as it were. That's the difference to me.
_________________________
ERIC SEABERG • San Diego, CA
A.E.S., I.E.E.E., S.M.P.T.E., S.P.A.R.S.

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#58693 - 09/10/06 04:36 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
GlennR01 Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 5136
 Quote:
Originally posted by Eric Seaberg:
I believe Bush made his choices based on information given him. There were lots of people duped by bad information.

Clinton's lying was personal... first hand, as it were. That's the difference to me.
So, you truly believe that Bush has been honest with the American public, has not lied about about anything rising to an impeachable offense throughout his two terms in office? This includes things like eavesdropping illegally on the American public, his administration's handling of Hurricane Katrina, thwarting the formation and assistance of the 9/11 Commission, his admin's outing of a CIA agent for political punishment? You feel he had no prior knowledge in any of these matters and he never personally lied? Well, if that's truly the case (and it might be), then it makes him even worse - 'cause he's just asleep at the switch and has no real idea of what going on in his administration.

Eric, just so you know that no disrespect is intended, if Bill Clinton's record beyond his foolish sexual dalliances equalled Bush's, I'd be right there with you. And its hard for me to understand when people (especially Conservatives) argue for mediocrity. OK, you elected him. If he and his administration are admittedly inept, why defend him? What's to prove? That there are other bad politicians, and this is what we should settle for? Unlike Zum, I don't believe that all politicians are equal and bad (...well, maybe bad ;\) ). I'd like to think that very serious times call for mature, educated leadership - regardless of what side of the aisle that leader comes from.

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#58694 - 09/10/06 06:45 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
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Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
I think Bush's entire administration made their foreign policy decisions based on insane ideology cooked up in the PNAC think tank. They hyped each other up to the point that anyone with any sense was thrown out.

 Quote:
Instead of Bush-bashing, why can't the Democrats offer up a better person (John Kerry was an embarrassment)? Dumb ol' Bush barely beat out a dumber ol' John Kerry.

This is and has been the Democrats long-standing problem - inability to offer up any better solutions. Their mantra is always 'We have a plan and we'll tell you about AFTER we are in office'.
It certainly hasn't always been that way, but I agree with you that this has been the Democrats' problem the last two elections (not the complaining about Bush, the lack of firm positions). Now, the reason they haven't taken a stand may have been fear of the right-wing swift boat smearing machine, but you're absolutely right about in general. And it doesn't win elections, which is why we have the worst administration in the history of this country.

What's right seems to have nothing to do with election strategies.

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#58695 - 09/10/06 08:24 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Dan Weiss Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 07/20/99
Posts: 3650
Loc: New York NY USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Eric Seaberg:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by GlennR01:
[qb]
Bush made his choices based on information given him. There were lots of people duped by bad information.

.
Bush made his decision based on information he manufactured. Come on Eric, it's public record that good intel reports were doctored to support the war idea.

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#58696 - 09/10/06 08:28 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
jkruta Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: 04/18/99
Posts: 1026
Loc: Collinsville/St. Louis, MO USA
 Quote:
based on information he manufactured
Sounds like some product reviews.

Jim K

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#58697 - 09/10/06 08:31 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
But the reason they doctored the intelligence is what I said: they've worked each other up into believing some very strange ideology. They believe it so fervently that small things like doctoring intelligence - or for that matter firing administrators of scientific organizations that won't come up with lies to support their ideology - are perfectly justified in their minds.

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#58698 - 09/10/06 09:16 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
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Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 7162
Loc: El Lay
"to support their ideology"

Back to the hole in the Democrats strategy. They have NO ideology - 'cept fer raisin' taxes.
_________________________
Obama is guilty of fraud and inducement.

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#58699 - 09/10/06 01:10 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
GlennR01 Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 5136
 Quote:
Originally posted by zumbido:
They have NO ideology - 'cept fer raisin' taxes.
If you believe that, than you will believe that Bush is the biggest Democrat in the good ole' USA. Quit parrotin' Fox News, Zum - it's downright unbecomin' of y'all. \:D

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#58700 - 09/10/06 01:14 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
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Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 7162
Loc: El Lay
What's their ideology?

From 2004: "Stronger at Home, Respected in the World"

What?

Is this some sports franchise slogan? Of course, nothing about how this bumper-sticker motto is to actually be realized.

I checked CNN, NY Times, LA Times... nothin'.

Oh, there are tons of articles (LA Times) about Phil Angelides (D) attempting to take the CA Govenor's gig. No real info 'cept that he's ALL about raisin' yer taxes - well at least mine and Nick's.
_________________________
Obama is guilty of fraud and inducement.

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#58701 - 09/10/06 03:32 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Justin Offline

Site Admin
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Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 3276
Loc: Portland, OR
We live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, DA7 user group? You weep for the war in Iraq, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That death, while tragic, probably saves lives. And that existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want soldiers on that wall, you need them on that wall. They use words like honor, code, loyalty. They use those words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. Bush has neither the time nor the inclination to explain this to a men who rise and sleep under the blanket of the very freedom he provides, and then questions the manner in which he provides it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.
_________________________
Justin
Site Admin
audiotalkback.com

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#58702 - 09/10/06 04:49 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Fieryjack Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/12/03
Posts: 656
Loc: New York
Justin, well said.

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#58703 - 09/10/06 05:07 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
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Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 7162
Loc: El Lay
Justin, did rider write that for you?
_________________________
Obama is guilty of fraud and inducement.

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#58704 - 09/10/06 05:09 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Dan Weiss Offline
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Registered: 07/20/99
Posts: 3650
Loc: New York NY USA
If I'm not mistaken I believe Jack Nicholson said it first.

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#58705 - 09/10/06 06:21 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
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Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 7162
Loc: El Lay
_________________________
Obama is guilty of fraud and inducement.

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#58706 - 09/10/06 09:06 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Justin, can you explain that for simpletons like me? I don't quite get the references.

***

zumbido, you're right that the Democrats aren't articulating what they stand for. That's why I'm so disgusted with them right now.

However, just not being Bush should be more than enough for a landslide victory.

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#58707 - 09/10/06 09:17 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Jeff E Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 03/01/00
Posts: 2211
Loc: Aptos, CA, USA
Yeah jack N said most of it first.. Just watched it the other night. What a great performance.

I don't know if Bush Made up the info or lied about it - which for the most part we will never know. It seems like everyone involved uses what ever info they have for political gain instead of getting at the truth. That is why I do not trust either side of the debate. No one can say it in an unbiased way. There is always some weird spin on it from either side.
It is kind of like the statement - what does the word "is" mean? I don't let my kids get away with that kind of talk.. why can the president??? That is not to pick on Clinton at all, they all speak that language. I have a friend/aquaintance that knows clinton and says he really is a good guy over all - even being from Arkansas! - But it is still the same political junk.
No one will come out and ever say.. this is what happened and this is what I knew. Although I do appreciate how Clinton wrote about it in His book and said I did it because I could. At least he was honest at that point - a little late though. What ever happend to just saying.. I beleive this and I want to do it?
My personal biased opinion is that George Jr. was just finishing up what Daddy Bush started in the 90s. No more and no less. He was covering his Daddy's tail and finishing up. 9-11 just gave him the opportunity to do it - sort of. I also think that is was linked to the palistinian issues. Once Saddam was out of there, the suicide bombings stopped for the most part in Israel. Before that time there were almost one everyday.
He should have just said.. we are going after Osamah and in addition to that we are going to take out Saddam because he ****es me off. Ok, I can handle that. I might not agree, but at least it would have been honest. Even if it was for resources (oil) thats ok too but come out and say it.. WE are a resource hungery nation and we want YOUR OIL so we can save ours. Or if it was for Israel's sake, Say it! At least you are not expecting me to be so gulible and stupid to beleive the spin and Hype. I think that is what makes all of us really mad most of the time.
What we need is a BS meeter on the bottom of the television.. the more the BS the higher it goes.. Actually, that would be pretty funny..

J

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#58708 - 09/10/06 10:39 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
jeremy hesford Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 05/06/99
Posts: 6219
Loc: odenton md.
I can't believe you guys are so f ing stupid, especially you sscnnon, Justin is making a joke, for buddha's sake dude. Justin hates Bush as much as the rest of us.

Obviously from a very good movie ( A few God Men), one of my all time favorites.

We are living in a time of greater and greater corruption, it's tme we get use to it. It won't get any better, human greed has no bounds.

Just be glad to be alive and able to go to the next Kiss reunion concert, and score some good weed on the way.

That's the best we can hope for. It's all down hill from here, just go along for the ride, enjoy your life for what it is.

Eric, as much as I respect you for your work, i'm bumbfounded that you can believe this horse s hit line and sinker. Do you also believe Bush is Lord?
Put in office by your imaginary figmintation of the human mind (God?)

How can such a smart man sitting brehind all that high end gear believe in that total horse s hit? And it is dude... it is!!!

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#58709 - 09/10/06 11:05 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
GlennR01 Offline
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Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 5136
I think that Justin's post, without a footnote describing who and what it is attributable to, might be taken out of context. It is Jack Nicholson's speech in the movie "A Few Good Men". While I can't vouch for Justin's intentions, I think it was a joke guys...

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#58710 - 09/11/06 12:43 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 2449
Loc: Florida
Thank God. Sorry Justin.
_________________________
Check your mix in mono.
www.mixingtheband.com

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#58711 - 09/11/06 03:36 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Sugarnutz Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/05
Posts: 528
Loc: Just South of Memphis
At least Bush has made some tough decisions on his own (and/or with the help of his advisors), for good or bad and stuck with them. Clinton on the other hand took a freaking poll before he did anything except dropping his shorts and waffled back and forth on everything, anyone of us could have done that. Even if someone screws up on a regular basis like GW, you have to give him credit for his testicular fortitude in dealing with things and like or not this is a sign of leadership which endears him to a lot of people.

In the future I have suggestion for celebrating 9/11: We pick a geographical location somewhere in the world that has been a PITA to us and carpet bomb the hell out of 100 sq. miles around it, maybe even use a nuke every now and then. We can be pacifist, humanitarian, liberal types (read Al Gore democrats) the rest of the year, but on this date we make sure the radical arseholes of the world lament the day that they decided to mess with us.

Justin’s quote from “A Few Good Men” is actually quite relevant in the situation we find ourselves in today. In the US we have a concept of freedom that our society is based upon which gives us the ability and right to do things such as discuss our opinions as we are discussing here, and to be able to do so without fear of reprisal to our families or ourselves. This is NOT the case in a larger proportion of the world and some tough choices have to be made to protect those freedoms. Although GW may not be going about it the absolute correct way, at least he is trying and I shudder at the prospect of having Al Gore or Kerry in the position to defend those freedoms for me.

I have been doing some reading and other research in the last few weeks to try and educate myself on the basis of current world events, some of you would be surprised at what you can find out. For example: PBS has a eye-opening documentary available called “Islam: Empire of Faith” which you can rent from Netflix. I personally came away from this DVD with a new respect for Islam while at the same time a bit of concern for the basic tenants of the faith. One thing I was amazed at was the tolerance for Jews and Christians that true Islam had and I do mean had in the past tense. What I am concerned with now is the fact that this religion demands it’s followers spread it to the rest of the world and current purveyors of the faith feel that others should be converted under penalty of death for refusal. These people will kill you and your children, we must be very careful in how we deal with this.
_________________________
   Judge Judy: "So when did you realize you were raped?"
Prostitute: "When the check bounced."

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#58712 - 09/11/06 04:31 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Dan Weiss Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 07/20/99
Posts: 3650
Loc: New York NY USA
Yeah, bush is trying, and succeeding. At firing up the war machine and making your military contractors very happy. Can you guess why bush brought us into a war with no exit strategy? Because we're not leaving, ever. There' are 14 brand new multimillion dollar military bases going up in Iraq right now. eeehaaa!

Eye opening documentaries? See "Why We Fight", or "Who Killed the Electric Car". Here's a hint. It wasn't Clinton that killed it.

Clinton wasn't perfect but he started cutting military spending, eliminated the deficit and reformed welfare. There was prosperity in the country, the market went up and the middle and lower classes were in much, much better shape than today. All the things that this adminstration hates. No wonder they linched him with that bogus sex scandal.

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#58713 - 09/11/06 07:14 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
 Quote:
My personal biased opinion is that George Jr. was just finishing up what Daddy Bush started in the 90s. No more and no less.
Jeff, it was planned in a think tank called the Project for the New American Century (which I've linked here recently). Your theory sounds completely plausible, except that it's all here in black and white. Look at the names who signed this letter:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

Then if you have some time, skim their site and compare it to the White House's site:

http://www.newamericancentury.org

http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nss.html

Sorry to repeat myself. If nothing else, that proves conclusively that this had nothing to do with 9/11 - it was planned way in advance. But I believe that if everyone had read this and understood how stark raving insane these radicals are, there's no way Bush would have been elected.

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#58714 - 09/11/06 07:19 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
 Quote:
At least Bush has made some tough decisions on his own (and/or with the help of his advisors), for good or bad and stuck with them.
Sugarnutz, do you honestly believe that the actual decisions he made are irrelevant?!

And do you really believe that bombing an arbitrary target, killing people who have nothing to do with the terrorist act, is going to convince the Bin Ladens of this world that we're tough and not to **** with us?!

We all wish there were simple answers to the complcated questions of the world, but unfortunately it's not so.

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#58715 - 09/11/06 08:11 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
GlennR01 Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 5136
 Quote:
Originally posted by Sugarnutz:
Although GW may not be going about it the absolute correct way, at least he is trying and I shudder at the prospect of having Al Gore or Kerry in the position to defend those freedoms for me.
Your approach to politics is very much an "either"/"or" proposition. My position continues to be why do we have to settle? Why can't we demand more and better from our public servants? Are you willing to concede that George W. Bush is the best you can expect to represent your political point of view?

Again, although I am a fiscal conservative and a social moderate, my issue with the Bush administration is exactly what you woefully point out - that right or wrong, he is headstrong in his direction and refuses to see the bigger picture. Can you so easily excuse the administrations ineptitude because they represent your politcal agenda? In reading your posts, you seem like a very well educated individual - why would you support this mediocrity? And, please, aren't we past the comparisons to the Clintons, Gores, et al? Must we continue to compare failure to failure? If the purpose in these very dangerous and serious times is to exact true leadership from the best and the brightest this great country has to offer, then we should, together, look for a greater depth of political and world understanding than the current crop that divide us. Its not about politics - its about competence.

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#58716 - 09/11/06 09:36 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
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Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
I agree that we should be able to do better, but Gore and Kerry aren't failures - they were just terrible candidates because they listened to the advice not to stand for anything. That left them vulnerable to simplistic bumper sticker ideas such as the one Sugarnutz has been gullible enough to have fallen prey to.

There seems to be this rule of campaigning in America that any solution to a problem that takes two sentences to explain is way too complicated a message - in fact one complete sentence is pushing it. Grunted phrases like "tough on terrorism" work much better.

("Are you agin or for gay marriage? It seems pretty simple to me." Moo.)

Sugarnutz, do you really think we wouldn't have been going after terrorist groups just like we are today if Gore or Kerry had won?! Why would you believe something that bizarre?

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#58717 - 09/11/06 09:46 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
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Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 7162
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"... do you really think we wouldn't have been going after terrorist groups just like we are today if Gore or Kerry had won?!"

Then what's your problem with Bush doing it?
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#58718 - 09/11/06 09:58 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Dark Star Balla Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 390
Loc: Chicago Bizurbz
the false pretences in wich he forced us into war. is only 1 issue. the hypocrisy the lack of concern for the people he represent. the over concern for the 1% who don't need much concern. I could go on all day but I digress.

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#58719 - 09/11/06 10:14 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
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Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 7162
Loc: El Lay
"the false pretences in wich he forced us into war. is only 1 issue... I could go on all day but I digress."

You've already started with two misstatements. So please, don't bore us with your digressing any further.
_________________________
Obama is guilty of fraud and inducement.

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#58720 - 09/11/06 11:03 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Zumbido, I have no problem with Bush policing terrorism behind the scenes. That's how the Brits were able to stop that recent plot, for example.

My problem is with Bush exacerbating the problem by invading Iraq - which he did with a rubber stamp from both houses, no question. He's militarized our foreign policy way beyond anything we've seen before, and that's created way more hatred toward us than the largely economic imperialism (backed up with military bases) that led to 9/11 in the first place. (This is more than anecdotal - there have actually been polls to confirm it.)

And I have a huge problem with the Republicans using terrorism as a political toy to get votes.

But I wouldn't stop there. Bush's energy policy, for example, is not leading us out of the problems that will eventually lead to the collapse of our civilization as we know it if we don't do anything about them. That's closely related to the Iraq war, of course.

What we should do about Iraq at this point I just don't know. We're damned if we stay and if we leave. We're not damned as badly as the innocent Iraqis are, though.

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#58721 - 09/11/06 01:10 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Justin Offline

Site Admin
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Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 3276
Loc: Portland, OR
Yes, my earlier post was a joke and I'm amused so many of you didn't get it. I was trying to demonstrate the mentality of the Bush thinking, in a nutshell, the ends justify the means. I'm sure Nick and the rest of the liberal thinkers on here would have no problem with us invading Iraq if Bush had successfully annexed Saddam, pulled out our troops before any real harm was done and somehow magically the government there came together. I heard Cheney on Meet the Press over the weekend admit he never thought it would be this hard in Iraq. And today on 9/11 we sit around talking about how we're not any safer with Osama running around loose.

Here's the truth my DA7 brothers. All this War on Terror crap we brought on ourselves. Al Queda is a relatively small band of thugs that we can handle as we've always handled with covert ops. Every time we replay 9-11 on CNN or post a picture of Osama on CNN.com we only fan the flames. There is no war on terror - it's called common sense. We don't need a war and all this mass hysteria we've created. Referring to terrorists like it's a single entity is absurd. That's like saying the guy who smashes into your fender is the same as the one kidnapping your kids and we must eliminate all criminals. We need to chill out and stop this fear machine created by the Republicans as a way to get you to buy more laundry detergent.
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#58722 - 09/11/06 01:51 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
I knew it wasn't serious, Justin, but I didn't know the reference - even though I think I saw that movie. Was it the one with Tom Cruise as a military lawyer?

Anyway, believe it or not I would still have had many problems with our having invaded Iraq even if it had been successful, mostly because of the way we went about it (although I'd have been a lot happier about it than I am now, of course). If the world needed Saddam Hussein gone, this should have been done through the UN just like the first Gulf war.

But that's irrelevant, because even people like me - just a private citizen and not a military intelligence expert - predicted what was going to happen. It was obvious that a country held together by force is going to have problems when you blow it apart. Just look at Yugoslavia.

My other thinking was that the one thing preventing Saddam Hussein from using his WMD - which I did believe he had, just like everyone else - was the threat of getting invaded by the US. If we invade him, there goes his motivation for not using them.

But it turned out I was wrong about that, thank goodness.

And while liberals like me found him as totally offensive as anyone else does and wanted him gone, I didn't exactly swallow the "spreading democracy" pill. That always made zero sense. It was always very likely to create animosity toward our country, and it never had anything to do with the "war on terrorism" (which is a euphemism).

Furthermore, we were already busy in Afghanistan - a war that was partly self-defense and partly about oil and natural gas pipelines from the Caspian Basin.

Finally - I think - it was clear that lots of innocent people were going to get killed. I've never felt good about the argument that Saddam Hussein would have killed more people. To me the Peter Principle isn't always right. Someone else doing something worse doesn't justify a lesser wrong. War is a total, pathetic failure, a last resort. I don't believe in discretionary wars.

So there are both practical and moral reasons why I believe this was wrong.

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#58723 - 09/11/06 03:09 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
GlennR01 Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 5136
 Quote:
Originally posted by zumbido:
"... do you really think we wouldn't have been going after terrorist groups just like we are today if Gore or Kerry had won?!"

Then what's your problem with Bush doing it?
Zum, Zum, Zum. You know better. I know you know better. Come on, bro'. ;\)

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#58724 - 09/11/06 03:47 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Oh, and I neglected to spell out the other major reason I'm opposed to the Iraq war: it's about oil as much as anything else! And of course there's the Haliburton connection, which is incredibly cynical.

Of course I'm not saying it's only about oil, but it's undeniable that oil weighs heavily in the mix. That's another reason we need to invest heavily in the next energy economy, even though it may seem far off since we just discovered a huge oil field in the Gulf Coast. At best that will only prolong the agony.

The way to win the "war on terrorism" (which translates roughly to "grab the oil") is to remove the reason for the war. And Cheney is doing the exact opposite, the lying scumbag.

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#58725 - 09/11/06 06:16 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Sugarnutz Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/05
Posts: 528
Loc: Just South of Memphis
I never saw the bumper sticker that Nick referred to; I took one look at Kerry and listened to the ranting of a desperate man to know he was not a sound choice. I also lived in Tennessee for quite a few years and know Al Gore well enough that he wasn’t worth it either. You are very naïve if you thing we’re ever going to get a qualified presidential candidate from either the Republicans or the Democrats. No we are always going to get who they think has the best chance to win, period.

If I remember correctly, prior to 9/11 we were not in Iraq, nor were we in Afghanistan. The only thing we had really done in the Middle East was to kick Saddam’s butt out of Kuwait, which I don’t think anyone here can say that it was not the right thing to do at the time. We still got our arses handed to us at the World Trade Center. Why?

If I were in charge after 9/11, any government or individual that had any complicity, large or small with this act would have to answer for it. All of them would be scrambling to bring Bin Laden to us out of fear. Screw the French (especially the French), Russians, the Chinese and the Saudis. It wouldn’t take much to hang the House of Saud out to dry and they had a lot to do with it based on errors of omission.

Where did all this hate come from? I see it on the board here as I have a view that is in opposition to Nick and a few others. Just because you’re a liberal, I don’t demean you for it.

The radical Islam guys are dead serious about spreading their religion and they mean to spread it here. “Convert or Die” is their motto and we need to do something about it. I’m not saying they’re gonna do it tomorrow or next week, but they have it marked on their calendar. I have no problem with someone else’s beliefs when it comes to religion, just don’t try to force me to go your way, suggest, but don’t force.

I still say we should celebrate 9/11 with kicking some well deserving enemy’s butt. Keep ‘em wondering what we’re gonna do next.
_________________________
   Judge Judy: "So when did you realize you were raped?"
Prostitute: "When the check bounced."

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#58726 - 09/11/06 06:38 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
It wasn't literally a bumper sticker, Sugar, it's just that kind of thinking.

As to the first Gulf War, did you know that it was at the behest of the Saudis you want to screw? Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait because they threatened to flood the market with oil at a time when he needed money desperately (because he'd just spent all that he had fighting Iran for eight years). The Saudis, whom it's in our interest to have on our side for obvious reasons, were concerned that he was getting ambitious and they'd be next.

The idea of kicking ass to spread fear and get countries to do our bidding is really appealing. We'd all like to be able to go and beat up the bad guys.

But it doesn't stand a chance of working. First of all, there's nobody to beat up when you're dealing with some creeps hiding in caves. We can go after Afghanistan because they allowed Bin Laden to operate, and that's not a bad idea - especially because the Taliban were at least as big a bunch of ****ing *******s as Saddam Hussein, and also because we were able to pay warlords to do it for us for the most part - but going after Iraq or anyone else to celebrate 9/11 is a hopelessly misguided idea.

Instead of having the effect we'd like, that turns the entire Muslim world (and the rest of it for that matter) against us and makes us lose the important battle over public opinion.

And for some reason I believe it's wrong to kill people, or even just to bring anarchy instead of democracy to them.

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#58727 - 09/11/06 06:46 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Also:

What you perceive as hate is frustration on my part. I apologize for that, but you're saying all the things that drive me nuts because they're so hopelessly wrong in my opinion. They're also evil, because there's no justification for killing innocent people.

 Quote:
The only thing we had really done in the Middle East was to kick Saddam’s butt out of Kuwait, which I don’t think anyone here can say that it was not the right thing to do at the time. We still got our arses handed to us at the World Trade Center. Why?
Because as I keep saying over and over, over the past 100 years we have repeatedly crossed the line between competition for resources and outright imperialism, and those hopeless people there are furious at us! We've done lots of stuff in the Mid East - including arming Israel to the teeth, which they perceive as the other source of all their problems.

And because they're insane. I certainly don't want to apologize for those smelly pieces of **** - the idea that killing a bunch of innocent people is going to solve the world's problems is just sick.

But this didn't come out of the blue, and it's not only religious insanity. It is that, but it comes from desperation.

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#58728 - 09/12/06 09:42 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
jeremy hesford Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 05/06/99
Posts: 6219
Loc: odenton md.
So Suger, you think Bush was the better choise than Gore or Kerry? Atleast the latter can speak english and finish a sentence with out a load of "ahhh, errrr, ummmm..." Bush can't even talk and is a total jackass.

In compparison Gore and Kerry were the qualfied people for the job. Personaly I respected Kerry, and do believe would have turned things around. At least the world would have respected the american people for getting rid of a bumbeling boob, but instead see us as "stupid". At least the one's who voted for that idiot.

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#58729 - 09/12/06 09:54 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
john gee Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 362
 Quote:
And because they're insane. I certainly don't want to apologize for those smelly pieces of **** - the idea that killing a bunch of innocent people is going to solve the world's problems is just sick.
ohh, and you're supposed to be the world's smartest people? my arse!

 Quote:
Zbigniew Brzezinski revealed a hidden Fact that on July 3, 1979, unknown to the public and American Congress that President Jimmy Carter secretly authorized $500 million to create an international terrorist movement that would spread Islamic fundamentalism in Central Asia and "de-stabilize" the Soviet Union... The CIA called this Operation Cyclone and in the following years poured $4 billion into setting up Islamic training schools in Pakistan (Taliban means "student").
oops!

and on a lighter note, Olbermann kicks some arse.

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Video_Olbermanns_special_commetary_for_anniversary_0911.html

pity he doesn't know about it being an inside job and all, but... the sentiments there.
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#58730 - 09/12/06 10:50 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Yeah John, I confess to being a moron because I don't believe it was Israelis who flew the planes into the WTC or rigged explosives - whatever it was.

But Keith Olberman is brilliant in that clip. I'm not as wound up as he is that there's no new building going on there yet, but the rest of his commentary is great - and spot on.

It's funny. He used to be the sports commentator in Boston when I was at Berklee, and he was annoying as hell. He's certainly grown into his job. The transformation is amazing.

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#58731 - 09/12/06 10:57 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
That quote about Brzezinski isn't surprising at all. By backing the "right" side, they induced the Soviet Union to invade Afghanistan, and that was the straw that broke their back. We've backed all kinds of subversive regimes over the years.

It was a different mindset then: we were focused on defeating the Soviets, and that drove our foreign policy as much as oil did. Part of the problem we're facing now is that the Cold War military machinery is still in place, and it's designed to be used. Rumsfeld is part of that machinery, for example.

I've already said (in this thread, I believe) that we backed the Taliban in order to have someone we could deal with to get oil and natural gas pipelines through Afghanistan. Too bad for them they were divided and didn't play ball; we went in there and got rid of them.

In other words, there's a good chance we would have invaded Afghanistan even if 9/11 hadn't come along so conveniently.

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#58732 - 09/12/06 11:42 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
john gee Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 362
 Quote:
so conveniently
humph! you still can't even say it can you ... inside job.

the PNAC documently clearly states that ONLY A MAJOR PEARL HARBOUR TYPE EVENT would catalyze the American public mindset to accept retaliation on a global scale to fight a FICTIONAL EXTERAL THREAT.

 Quote:
Moreover, as America becomes an increasingly multi-cultural society, it may find it more difficult to fashion a consensus on foreign policy issues, except in the circumstance of a truly massive and widely perceived direct external threat." —from The Grand Chessboard
in other words the vast majority of people DON'T WANT WAR .....

but as ALL WAR IS BASED ON FRAUD (DECEPTION) any public can be brought to its knees and made to submit.

the 'direct external threat' is manufactured and promoted and managed by a controlled media.
ALL major media outlets have been assets of the Intelligence agencies since the 50s.
_________________________
The Constitution is kooky?

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#58733 - 09/12/06 11:53 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
I can say it, but I don't believe it. Sorry. This was the work of a real group of nuts called Al Queda. Bin Laden is their leader, and that Egyptian ******* with a beard and no moustache is his doctor. They killed lots of people, and they suck.

There's no question that 9/11 was the "barring some catastrophic event" the PNAC was ready to exploit, though. But even they didn't do it.

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#58734 - 09/12/06 12:00 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
john gee Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 362
prove it
you'll lose on every point.

you're ****ing with sherlock holmes, boy.

c'mon, nick, just between you, and me shhhh real quiet like... go on admit it.

911 was great for Israel. Great for western/ Israeli relations, absolutely great.
_________________________
The Constitution is kooky?

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#58735 - 09/12/06 12:03 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
You've been snorting too much coke, Sherlock.

I just don't believe the theories about why it wasn't the planes. The way it collapsed means very little to me, and everything else is coincidence.

You have to admit that the idea of our own government doing that just to get its way is pretty incredible. Especially when you combine that with the Pentagon missile theory. The armed forces aren't about to shoot their own building.

By the way, did you ever see that video of Bin Laden bragging about it after the face? That could be a look-alike, but I haven't seen any reason to believe that.

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#58736 - 09/12/06 12:06 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
john gee Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 362
you're a poor american and a disgrace to yorkshire common sense. too much money and smog in the head.
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The Constitution is kooky?

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#58737 - 09/12/06 12:09 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
I know I'm a disgraceful Yorkshireman, but I am contrite. And you're right that I have way too much money.

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#58738 - 09/12/06 12:10 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
john gee Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 362
can't you fu ck ing read you daft tit?

Operation Northwoods

google it

precise same scenario.

your goverment wouldn't do it? ha, you idiot, they killed Kennedy because he refused to go along with Northwoods in 1962.

try doing a little/....... shhhhhhh research.

and its opium. try reading. helps the soul.
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The Constitution is kooky?

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#58739 - 09/12/06 12:17 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
Founding Member
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Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 7162
Loc: El Lay
Olbermann?

A failed sport's scores-reader TV personality.

That goof is a loser. Pulling in maybe 12 people on his dumbass cable blather-show.

He couldn't even keep his pitiful gig here in L.A. blathering about the Dodgers.

Sad.
_________________________
Obama is guilty of fraud and inducement.

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#58740 - 09/12/06 12:27 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
This is your standard smokescreen, zumbido. Never explain why you believe the stupid **** you belive, just sneer at people. Al Gore, the Clintons, Keith Olberman - it doesn't matter. Just sneer at them and say they're idiots.

Or if you're arguing with me, use my 11-year-old car as a reason not to come up with any serious answers to anything I post. Just call me the local radical left-wing loon and then you don't have to come up with anything that advances the discussion.

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#58741 - 09/12/06 12:35 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
Founding Member
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Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 7162
Loc: El Lay
I just explained why he's LOSER.

He would endlessly blather on and on about the L.A. Dodgers.

This expert, on baseball, can't even throw a wad of paper at the camera and hit it.

As for Gore and Clinton - they're just your run-of-the-mill textbook standard losers.
_________________________
Obama is guilty of fraud and inducement.

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#58742 - 09/12/06 12:46 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
jkruta Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: 04/18/99
Posts: 1026
Loc: Collinsville/St. Louis, MO USA
There are some individuals who wish they could speak as well as the President does. After a while, it gets rather tiresome hearing these insensitive remarks equating eloquence with intelligence. There are quite a number of people out there that have had to put up with that stigma all of their lives.
Maybe it's not intentional, but using those tactics sure doesn't enhance one's political position or persuade others to see you as a beacon of reason.

Jim K.

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#58743 - 09/12/06 12:47 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
john gee Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 362
bush must be a text book winner: ex-drug addict, drunk, hit and run, semi-felon (excused), awol'er, failed business men, con-artist

yep straightup winner.
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#58744 - 09/12/06 01:34 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
C'mon Jim, this is the worst president in 230 years of US history. To start with, the ability to speak coherently is a major part of the job description. Sometimes a lack of innate abilities simply disqualifies someone from doing a job. Just as a plain-looking woman would be out of place on a fashion runway, a person with unexceptional mental abilities at best is out of place running this country.

Besides, I have a hard time believing that you really feel this is making fun of people with speech difficulties - any more than pointing out what a moron he is is making fun of people with mental disabilities. Maybe if he weren't so arrogant and such a jackass I'd feel sorry for him and begin to see your point of view, but even then I doubt it.

The truth is that no insult is great enough for this man. I despise him so much I can't even stand to look at him - and I've explained why many times.

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#58745 - 09/12/06 03:10 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
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Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 2449
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nick Batzdorf:
The way it collapsed means very little to me, and everything else is coincidence.
Of course it does. And of course it is. Coincidence that means very little.

Coincidences
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#58746 - 09/12/06 03:51 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
jkruta Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: 04/18/99
Posts: 1026
Loc: Collinsville/St. Louis, MO USA
Nick,
My short rant was not intended to defend Bush any more than Jeremy's soliloquy was actually meant to belittle or offend persons with impaired speach or a limited command of English (other than the President ;\) )
When you work with some of these people who are dealing with these issues, you can start to get a bit defensive.
I would like to apologize if I have misinterpreted anyone's words.

Jim K.

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#58747 - 09/12/06 03:56 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
john gee Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 362
sean,
don't even bother, its simply not worth it.

But, as Mark Twain said

'only dead men are allowed to tell the truth in this world.'

And here it is, from the grave.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-3281135121622917423&q=frank+demartini

Frank DeMartini, head manager of the WTC construction team, talking about how the towers were deliberately built to withstand the full impact of a fully loaded 707 commercial airliner.

He goes on to say that the buildings were so well engineered that they could easily take 'Multiple' impacts and stand.

That unusual outer structure of the towers, crosshatch style outer frame was designed to spread the load of the impact horizontally and vertically across the surface, disintegrating any plane into millions of tiny parts.

There's no way two random collisions in two random areas could bring down those buildings so uni-formly and in the same time frame, at the same drop rate (near free fall).

PS the difference between a 707 and a 757, is very minimal , wingspan a few feet less, weight about 10-20 tens less.
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#58748 - 09/12/06 04:27 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
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Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
No need to apologize, Jim. It's a highly charged topic, and as you know, anyone who doesn't agree with me is wrong.

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#58749 - 09/12/06 04:28 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
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Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
John, they withstood the impact but not the fire from what I can see.

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#58750 - 09/12/06 04:28 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
jeremy hesford Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 05/06/99
Posts: 6219
Loc: odenton md.
Justin, what you said about the middle east situation is dead on. There is no war on terror, it's a catch phrase. It's a war on a few thugs who outsmarted the CIA/ FBI you name it.

The US government created this situation. I don't know who I hate more, Bush or Bin Laden. Our government just keeps f ucking up over and over.

The war on terror is GWB. His administration is responsible for this hugh mess we are in now with Irac. Bush is the terrorist here.

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#58751 - 09/12/06 05:23 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
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Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 2449
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nick Batzdorf:
John, they withstood the impact but not the fire from what I can see.
If the fire from jet fuel, most of which burned up in a fireball outside the building, was hot enough to melt the fire-protected steel, and make it molten (7 floors underground?!?!) for months, why are there pictures of people standing in the open gash? Wouldn't the heat that could melt hardened steel have completely vaporized all humans in the area of impact?

How did a building that was not hit by planes (WTC7) or substantial debris, and had a couple floors on fire, completely collapse upon itself into it's own footprint, with no trace of any of the vertical support beams? It takes the very best, most experienced demolition companies, of which there are only a few, to make a building fall upon itself gracefully in that manner, leaving no support structure standing.

I'm certainly not saying Bush piloted a plane himself, but there are a lot of strange coincidences, not the least of which was the fact that although other buildings took more debris, all buildings owned by Silverstein collapsed fully into their own footprint. He then collected at least 3 billion dollars in insurance money, since he had recently purchased "terrorist insurance" on the buildings, and, subsequently, the administration was given the go ahead to invade oil-rich countries "to protect us".

BTW, molten steel is a by-product of a thermite reaction. Jet fuel does not burn hot enough to melt hardened steel. Certainly not in 56 minutes.

Further, why was the crime scene off limits to even FEMA, and the steel, conveniently in truck-sized pieces, was immediately sold and shipped overseas. Crime scene evidence was immediately shipped overseas.

The "pancake theory" doesn't hold up, either, because all concrete was pulverized into dust. Buildings that pancake down leave a stack of floors piled up at the bottom.

Why was trillions of dollars "missing" after the attacks, and trucks loaded with gold were found under building 5, in an escape convoy? Who had the knowledge to clear out the money? Who stood to gain from this event? Certainly the Bush administration and the PNAC war machine.

Why did it happen on September 11th, when Marvin Bush's WTC security contract was up on September 10th, and the whole US defense system was skewed by false blips and false hijackings due to training excercises? Talk about convenient.

Do you really think that fire brought down these buildings, when fire has never before, or since, brought down a steel building? Especially into it's own footprint in a pile of dust? The towers were "over-engineered" for fire and attacks, even hurricanes, yet 3(?!?) buildings did just that on that terrible day...

I was never a conspiracy theorist, but I would like to hear logical answers to a number of questions like these.
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#58752 - 09/12/06 05:37 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Dan Weiss Offline
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Registered: 07/20/99
Posts: 3650
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Me too, as well as a reason why three black boxes magically all failed to work, when 99.999% of crash recovered boxes work flawlessly.

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#58753 - 09/12/06 05:44 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
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Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
I certainly don't know the answers - or even that those are all facts, for that matter. But I'm sure that if they are facts that there are answers. Or not - when was the last time airliners crashed into skyscrapers?

Operation Northwoods is a frightening story, by the way. It's hard to say whether that was why Kennedy was murdered, but I wouldn't be surprised.

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#58754 - 09/12/06 06:56 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
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Loc: Florida
All I'm saying is that you should research this if you think these are not facts, and that fire from jet fuel is what brought down 3 steel buildings, and pulverized the concrete to dust (except for the discovery of an intact hijacker's passport), and melted steel in the basement floors 7 stories underground. Unprecedented fire.

You said "they withstood the impact but not the fire from what I can see." And "The way it collapsed means very little to me, and everything else is coincidence." This is simply a repeat of the official story, and is a "head-in-the-sand" approach to the truth, whatever that may be.

This is typical of the mindset here. If I question the official story, I am branded as a nutcase and unpatriotic, but then you won't research any real, scientific answers to my questions. I asked someone if they knew what the PNAC was, and he said "No, and I don't care. The government is not smart enough to have pulled this off." The propoaganda machine is in full force, and ignorance ("I don't even know if these are facts") is abundant.

Really. Fire brought down 3 steel buildings. Hmmmm. Into their own footprint, nice and neat. No toppling, no beams left shooting into the sky, etc. Maybe you can believe this, but it was remarkably like a controlled demolition.

It is interesting to note your extensive knowledge and opinions of the political and economic side of the war and the administration's policies, but you should research this. These are not small, insignificant, coincidental questions. And there are many more.
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#58755 - 09/12/06 07:16 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
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"To start with, the ability to speak coherently is a major part of the job description."

Where's that list?

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#58756 - 09/12/06 07:30 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
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Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Stephen Hawking is a theoretical physicist, not a president. The job descriptions are quite different; obviously he doesn't have to talk to do what he does.

However, he does happen to be very articulate in writing. It takes a talent to explain all that incredibly complicated stuff as well as he does.

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#58757 - 09/12/06 07:41 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
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Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Sean, I don't have my head in the sand - as in deliberately and aggressively ignoring reality - but it seems totally implausible that anything happened to the WTC other than the official story, and totally plausible that the planes caused them to collapse. I'm starting with that assumption, as most people are.

In other words, it's far more likely that there are answers to every one of the strange coincidences than that there aren't. And the problem with doing "research" is that there are lots of nutty sites that report what look like facts but aren't; they don't look any different from sites that do have facts.

How do we know that the steel was shipped the way you say, for example? It may well have been, but if so there's probably a good answer.

I certainly don't think you're a nutcase or unpatriotic, I just find it totally unlikely that this was a case of friendly fire.

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#58758 - 09/12/06 08:03 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
jeremy hesford Offline
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Registered: 05/06/99
Posts: 6219
Loc: odenton md.
As much as in so many ways I don't believe in this country, that I don't think it's the "greatest" country in the world, and in as there are alot of very strange things about 9-11, I can't bring myself to believe that this was a setup by the US Government.

I just can't bring myself to believe that there is a cover up at all in any way about what actually happened. Just as on 9-11, i couldn't believe those were hijacked planes with innocent people on them, I assumed they flew in from over seas.

I find it strange that there is no plane left visable at the Petagon, I mean not even a trace of anything. Has there ever been a plane crash where there was'nt "some " wreckage? Very strange.

How is this possible, not even a trace of a wing, or window, nothing?

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#58759 - 09/12/06 08:04 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
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So where's this list, Nick?

It's not listed in my copy of the Constitution.

Maybe I have the Reader's Digest version or something.

***

Jeremy, come on. I don't know where you are getting this. But...

Allyn E. Kilsheimer, very well respected structural engineer was one of the first on the scene.

He has documented finding: pieces of the tail section WITH the airline markings, the black box and body parts. You can google his name.

Or continue to believe in a conspiracy.
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#58760 - 09/12/06 08:18 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
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Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Bend over really far and you'll eventually reach it. Keep going - it's a big target.

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#58761 - 09/12/06 08:26 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
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You mentioned something about a "standard smokescreen"?
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#58762 - 09/12/06 09:50 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
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Posts: 2449
Loc: Florida
For the record, I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. I just have questions about these "coincidences". Zumbido, indeed, has all the facts, and he'll curtly point you to them, ignoring any of the questions previously asked. But it is nice to see Zum and Nick agree on something.

Oh, and I love how Allyn E. Kilsheimer and that bunch say:
"Why wasn't the hole as wide as a 757's 124-ft.-10-in. wingspan? A crashing jet doesn't punch a cartoon-like outline of itself into a reinforced concrete building, says ASCE team member Mete Sozen, a professor of structural engineering at Purdue University." Isn't that what we saw at the towers? A cartoon like shape of a plane hole?

It is really hard to imagine, kinda like anything that goes against our beliefs and faiths. Kinda like saying "Jesus is the only way". It is not possible for someone to accept any other "way" when that is how they believe. Try saying that to a Muslim, or a Jew. People have a deep-rooted belief that the government is always there to protect them, they are on our side, they could never do this, and as such, these beliefs are hard to dispell.

I find it very hard to believe that our government would ever do something like this, a "False Flag" strike. And of course if you question things that don't seem to add up, you are a weirdo. No, Nick, I'm not saying you're calling me a weirdo, I'm generalizing. I've heard some really crazy stories, like there were no planes that hit the towers, or UFOs did it. I am not in that group.

However, there are unanswered questions. Hail to the cheif.
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#58763 - 09/12/06 10:00 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
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'curtly'?

I used that word today scolding my six year-old know-it-all whippersnapper.

:p
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#58764 - 09/12/06 10:13 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Kecinzer Offline
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Registered: 11/08/01
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Loc: MA, USA
:rolleyes:
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#58765 - 09/13/06 10:06 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
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#58766 - 09/13/06 01:46 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Kecinzer Offline
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Registered: 11/08/01
Posts: 3464
Loc: MA, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nick Batzdorf:


zumbido, you're right that the Democrats aren't articulating what they stand for. That's why I'm so disgusted with them right now.
Finally, Nick!

Welcome to the club of independent thinkers!

BTW, In the beginning I thought that Keith Olberman was pretty funny, even thought I never liked the paper throwing extravaganza, unless someone would convince me that he is the one who goes, and actually pick-up all the paper from the floor (unlikely).

I don't know him as a sport dude, maybe he should be a comedian, because he is pretty pathetic as an anchor / news / commentary guy.
;\) \:\)
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#58767 - 09/13/06 02:09 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
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Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
You mean up until that comment I was part of an organized group of thinkers?


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#58768 - 09/13/06 03:08 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Kecinzer Offline
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Registered: 11/08/01
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Loc: MA, USA
More like a part of the group of organized thinkers. ;\)
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#58769 - 09/13/06 03:12 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
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Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 2449
Loc: Florida
:rolleyes:
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#58770 - 09/13/06 03:34 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
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Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Think groupers an of organized part.

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#58771 - 09/13/06 03:44 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Kecinzer Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 11/08/01
Posts: 3464
Loc: MA, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nick Batzdorf:
Think groupers an of organized part.
See? Finally you starting to make some sense! \:D
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#58772 - 09/13/06 03:47 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Kecinzer Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 11/08/01
Posts: 3464
Loc: MA, USA
BTW: (from the other thread)

 Quote:
Originally posted by Nick Batzdorf:
Well, I see huge differences between every one of those: communists, Democrats, Republicans, religions, and people who say their way is right for everyone else. \:\)
True ... but they all have one thing in common ... they're all demagogs ... meaning the "leaders" not necessary all those well meaning followers like yourself. (and that was my little point)

Just don't let them to brainwash you, and turn you into an hateful person. You should rely more on your intellect to see your way out of all that mud. I know it's not all that easy these days.
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#58773 - 09/13/06 04:10 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
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I don't think I'm brainwashed, Josef!

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#58774 - 09/13/06 06:17 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Kecinzer Offline
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Registered: 11/08/01
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Nick, I didn't say that you're ...
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#58775 - 09/13/06 07:51 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
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Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Okay, I won't.

Hey John and Sean, this was in Time magazine:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1531304-1,00.html

This sidebar is interesting:


Setting The Record Straight
By COCO MASTERS

Posted Tuesday, Sep. 12, 2006

A lack of identifiable plane wreckage, among other anomalies, has helped fuel skepticism about the official explanation of Sept. 11 damage to the Pentagon, left. Here's more on that debate and a few other Internet-fueled conspiracy theories that still thrive

THE TOWERS' COLLAPSE

• THE CLAIM: Explosives brought down the Twin Towers. Critics of the official explanation point to such clues as the pattern and timing of dust and debris blown out from the floors, the vertical fall of the towers and two seismic tremors that coincided with their collapse.

• THE FACTS: The impact of the Boeing 767s damaged support columns and steel floor trusses, causing the inward collapse of perimeter columns, which pulled floors straight down. A misquote of a demolition expert propagated the explosives theory. Seismic spikes, caused by debris hitting the ground, were recorded 10 sec. after each tower started to fall.

THE MYSTERY OF WTC 7

• THE CLAIM: WTC 7 also contained explosives since fire alone has never felled a modern skyscraper. Authorities have delayed releasing a WTC 7 report to hide the truth.

• THE FACTS: A few critical elements--including damage on the south face, unusual structural design to accommodate a Con Edison substation, extreme weight bearing on floors, and long-burning diesel fuel leaked from large emergency generators--compromised WTC 7's structural integrity. The draft report is expected in early 2007.

HOLES IN THE PENTAGON

• THE CLAIM: A missile or smaller plane--not Flight 77--struck the Pentagon because the size of two holes (in Ring C and Ring E) were too small to have been made by a 757, which has a wingspan of nearly 125 ft.

• THE FACTS: Witnesses saw the 757 hit the Pentagon. The plane lost its wings when one hit the ground and the other slammed into the building's west wall before the Boeing's fuselage tore a 75-ft. hole in the outermost Ring E. The jet's landing gear caused the 12-ft. hole in inner Ring C. But to question Flight 77's demise is to question the fate of the 64 people onboard; the remains of all but one have been identified.

SCRAMBLE

• THE CLAIM: Fighter jets within range of the hijacked planes must have been under orders to stand down, since none from the 28 Air Force bases in the area was scrambled.

• THE FACTS: There are seven alert sites on the U.S. mainland, each with two active aircraft, that can scramble fighters. The 9/11 commission concluded that F-15s were scrambled within 6 min. of notification of the hijacking of Boston's Flight 11. Because hijackers had dismantled the planes' transponders, the F-15s could not identify the endangered aircraft. Details of the intercepts' performance are now being questioned.

From the Sep. 11, 2006 issue of TIME magazine

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#58776 - 09/13/06 09:08 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
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Here's the best source for the myth debunking .

WARNING: Don't bother reading any of this if your pea-sized brain is incapable of logical thinking.
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#58777 - 09/13/06 09:19 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
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Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
That is a good one. They do answer the claims pretty directly, don't they.

(As you can see, I disregarded your advice in spite of my pea-sized brain.)

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#58778 - 09/13/06 10:36 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
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Loc: Florida
Zum- love the avatar. The little penguin gives him a push. Funny stuff!

Thanks for the well-known link. I did read the entire piece run in Popular Mechanics, and the subsequent "Scholars For Truth" debunking of their debunking, before I ever posted any questions here. Popular Mechanics definitely has all the answers, don't they? These are the "official" explanations all over again.

The scholars, unfortunately, (physicists, chemists, etc) have major problems with their explanations, and go step-by-step through them one-by-one, explaining why they just can't possibly be as claimed by the car mag. Follow my link.

I posted a link earlier to it, and asked some straight-forward questions regarding the fires, collapsing, survivor accounts, etc. that fly in the face of this "authority", but you never answered one of my real questions, and probably didn't follow the link, assuming that because I have questions, I must be a pea-brain. Each "fact" explained by Popular Mechanics is shown, by sholars and the NIST's own conclusions, to be false.

Even if there were no involvement whatsoever by the US in any capacity, the hard science doesn't add up in many cases. It's not for me to decide, or you, but it is interesting to see highly educated people going "wait a minute, it doesn't work that way."

The Time magazine article also says that 36% of the country believes the US had some involvement in the action or inaction of that day. 36% of the country, including college professors, are thus deemed "pea brains" by scholar and fact-giver Zumbido.

And I love how they blame misquotes by structural engineers, deisel fuel in WTC 7, and the "turning off" of transponders, among other "facts", yet completely disregard other pea-brained "facts" established by the laws of physics. And again, who stood to gain the most by this event? Al-Queda?

I never said buildings weren't hit by planes, I merely questioned the slew of coincidences shrugged off by Nick. If you re-read my questions, and give me some answers, I would love to read them as well. This is interesting to me, plain and simple.
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#58779 - 09/13/06 10:48 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
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Registered: 03/18/01
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Loc: Florida
Hey- look at that! I was the 100th post on this topic!

It is interesting to note that the Time Magazine article doesn't debunk any theory, asks the same questions, and then quotes psychologists as saying conspiracy theories are sort of like a healing process. I don't need any healing. They also belittle the Loose Change videos as being kids with pizza money.

But they don't have answers for the questions, either, and leave the reader in the same cliff-hanger he was in before reading the article. It is an op ed piece.
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#58780 - 09/13/06 10:50 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
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And Popular Mechanics? Would you read that magazine as a government authority? They broach the subject because it sells magazines, and sheeple buy it.
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#58781 - 09/14/06 07:11 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
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Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Sean, it's not fair to call people like me sheeple just because we don't automatically believe the conspiracy theories. What if there really are valid answers to all those questions?

There are lots of interesting questions, but it's just a game, and the chances of them amounting to anything are very, very small. Isn't it far more likely that this was terrorism than that it was our own government?

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#58782 - 09/14/06 08:05 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
john gee Offline
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Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 362
Northwoods.

'ohhh, but they wouldn't do that .. no no on.'

have you seen the state of your country?

oh, and Time Magazine? owned. CIA. period. since the 50s. period.

oh, and nick, i would think that a construction manager (DeMartini) might 'factor in' the element of jetfuel, when constructing a building designed to withstand airplane impacts.

No offense. Buy some kerosene. Burn it. see if you get any puddles or large amounts lying around afterward. Its a total reaction. It burns uniformly and evenly and instantaneously.

All the fuel went up in the fireball straight away.

what burned was office furniture, carpets, office objects and people.

black smoke is indicative of a low temp carbon based fire. Go ask a firefighter.

this is not furnace behaviour.

the TIME magazine piece is a hit piece. Period.

you all got screwed and are too mortified to admit it.
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#58783 - 09/14/06 08:36 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 2449
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nick Batzdorf:
Sean, it's not fair to call people like me sheeple just because we don't automatically believe the conspiracy theories. What if there really are valid answers to all those questions?

There are lots of interesting questions, but it's just a game, and the chances of them amounting to anything are very, very small. Isn't it far more likely that this was terrorism than that it was our own government?
I'm not saying you personally are a sheeple. It's just that many people blindly follow the word of the press. It is not just a game. These buildings were meant to withstand and impact and a fire, and they came down in a manner inconsistent with anything but a controlled demolition. Especially a few fires on WTC7. You believe fires caused a perfect implosion of a WTC7 into it's own neat footprint, when nothing hit the building?

Other buildings in the area had fires, and the steel frames remained standing. It's a safe bet that you could start a fire in any steel building on the planet, even put deisel fuel containers in there, and it won't collapse, least of all expected outcomes would be a picture-perfect demoliton into it's own footprint. Buildings don't fall down like that from fire. They get gutted, maybe, and they topple if the frame gets cut. Search and you will find not another case in history. I think they had a little help. It is scary that you call this a game. The reason they are interesting questions is not because I like controversy, it is because the physics don't add up.

I noticed that you applauded Zum's link to the car mag, but had nothing to say about my link, which is educated people debunking those exact knee jerk explanations, one by one, even using the NIST's own conclusions to dispute their claims.
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#58784 - 09/14/06 08:42 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
Founding Member
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Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 7162
Loc: El Lay
"you all got screwed and are too mortified to admit it."

Thanks for clearing that up, john 'the go to guy' gee.
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#58785 - 09/14/06 09:29 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 2449
Loc: Florida
And thank you, zum, for the answers. Not.
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#58786 - 09/14/06 09:36 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
Founding Member
*

Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 7162
Loc: El Lay
Mr. Kluth,

Let me summarize your previous reply.

This conspriacy was masterminded by Bush, Silverstein, al Qaeda, bin Ladin, Sadam, Blair, Cheney, M5, CIA, FBI, Ronald MacDonald, Bozo the Clown, GHW Bush, Dan Rather, Katie Couric, Babe Ruth, FDNY, Israel.

I apologize if left anyone out,

Oh, and all the little dead people and their parentless children.

Plus, every other nameless person that was brought in to contribute their 'part' and of course, not a single one has cunbled under the guilt and come forth.

Absolutely amazing!

What is most perplexing is that dumb ol' Bush could pull this off with his pea-sized brain.
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#58787 - 09/14/06 09:38 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
Founding Member
*

Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 7162
Loc: El Lay
Nevermind, Kluth deleted it.

Change of heart, perhaps?
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#58788 - 09/14/06 10:10 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
ynghermes Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 11/09/00
Posts: 3076
The great Rosevelt knew of the Pearl Harbor attack way before they acctually got there and was thrilled that it would bring us into the war, that is common knowledge. The Cuban inciedent, the Bay of Tolkin are all so close as to bring up questions. How can we dismiss the twin towers or Building 7? Let allone the USS Cole? Or the dykes in N.O.? If there wasn't anything covert about them, how could we let the government put the patriot act into effect without a way to deactivate it? No this stuff is a way to herd the sheeple. Do we even have to go into the'great' Lincons emancapation proclamation (the slaving of the free, not the freeing of the slaves) or the poisioning of the indians blankets?

Sean, Metal will move under the heat of a fire and 'could' move tward the center. I am not saying that is the answer at all, just mentioning that, that can happen. I have seen many strange things happen to beams and gurters after a fire. I can't for one second believe that heat treated steel with insolation spraed on it would ever react that way as it did on the towers, given that amount of time and given the heat requirements the the treated insolation/iron would have, it is over 2,000 degrees and plane fule does not burn that hot unless it is injected into a turbin .

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#58789 - 09/14/06 10:26 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Mark Kluth Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 1920
Loc: Maui, Hawaii
 Quote:
Originally posted by zumbido:
Nevermind, Kluth deleted it.

Change of heart, perhaps?
No, I often post things on this forum out of an emotional response, then after posting realize that it's pointless to post anything here, because some smartass will do his best to debunk it and make you look like an idiot. So I delete it. I guess you refreshed your page and saw it before I came to my senses and realized that I don't care after all.
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Audiophile: "A gate IS a compressor, A Fader is a MANUAL compressor." Pure comedy.

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#58790 - 09/14/06 10:29 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
ynghermes Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 11/09/00
Posts: 3076
Come on Mark, your safe with that icon... \:D

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#58791 - 09/14/06 10:29 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
John, we have corporate-controlled media in this country - this world - and I don't like it one bit. Faux News is by far the worst (as I say over and over), and it's dragged down all the others to the point that CNN actually had ****ing theme music for the Israel/Hezbollah war!

Bad, bad, bad. The creeps we have in our government right now will change faces, but the media won't get any better. That's not a good thing for the fate of the world, because a misinformed electorate is completely vulnerable.

Now, I don't disagree that the article is slanted. Really it's the sidebar that I found interesting. And Time isn't anywhere near as good as it used to be before it got dumbed down. But Time magazine is CIA?! What?!

Next: if you and Sean believe that 9/11 was all a conspiracy, I'll admit that it's not beyond the realm of possibility. I personally find it overwhelmingly unlikely, as I may have mentioned in passing, but I'm not calling you idiots for believing that. However, your saying that anyone who doesn't believe what you believe is stupid, a bad Yorkshireman, gullible, etc. etc. - that's just stupid. There's lots of evidence to support the conventional belief - including eyewitnesses who saw the plane crash into the Pentagon, for example - so you might want to temper your indignation. Really, it's way out of line.

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#58792 - 09/14/06 10:32 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
 Quote:
These buildings were meant to withstand and impact and a fire, and they came down in a manner inconsistent with anything but a controlled demolition. Especially a few fires on WTC7. You believe fires caused a perfect implosion of a WTC7 into it's own neat footprint, when nothing hit the building?
Sorry, but as a matter of fact yes, I do.

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#58793 - 09/14/06 10:41 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
I wrote:

However, your saying that anyone who doesn't believe what you believe is stupid, a bad Yorkshireman, gullible, etc. etc. - that's just stupid. ... Really, it's way out of line.

Mark Kluth wrote:

 Quote:
Oh **** off, Nick. Half your posts here are exactly that. "Seriously uninformed" is your catchphrase.
I just wanted to copy that in case Mark decides to delete it.

Hey Mark, the flaw in your thinking is that when I say that I'm right I am right. Notice that in this case I'm saying that there are two sides.

The flaw in your personality is another matter.

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#58794 - 09/14/06 10:44 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Mark Kluth Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 1920
Loc: Maui, Hawaii
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nick Batzdorf:
Hey Mark, the flaw in your thinking is that when I say that I'm right. Notice that in this case I'm saying that there are two sides.
Yeah, your side and everybody else who is wrong. Now, quick copy this before I delete it, Bozo!
_________________________
Audiophile: "A gate IS a compressor, A Fader is a MANUAL compressor." Pure comedy.

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#58795 - 09/14/06 11:16 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
john gee Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 362
 Quote:
Sorry, but as a matter of fact yes, I do.
explain the demolition of WTC 7 then.

but remember .

it's descent, is supersmooth, its axis near pefectly horizontal, moving perfectly straight down, maintaining its shape as it goes, into a heap within its own footprint. 6 to 7 secomds i believe. near frictionless descent to ground.
all load bearing members failing at once throughout the whole building. house of cards.


the classic crimping effect is clearly observable on the roof center, caused from a center column, bottom up demolition.

in short, it's quite beautiful.

fire? how dare you cheapen that mastery. **** off.

at least Italian TV has the spicy meatballs to show it on their TV.
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#58796 - 09/14/06 11:35 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Sugarnutz Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/05
Posts: 528
Loc: Just South of Memphis
Hey Nick

Let’s get back to what we were talking about earlier in the week. I agree with you about not killing innocent civilians, but I start wondering who the innocent civilians really are. Do you mean the mass crowd in Iraq that turned out for the hanging and body burning of those three security contractors? How is it a young man who is considered an innocent civilian, just one day snaps and decides to strap his body with explosives and detonate them in a public place or is this a hatred for others he has been taught from birth? Are not his parents, teachers, religious leaders and community as a whole responsible for what this young man has become. I have been listening to the democrat’s doctrine of “It Takes a Village to Raise a Child” and does that not apply here also? I have been reading the Jerusalem Post for a while and an article quoted the late Israeli leader Golda Meir saying that “When the Arabs learn to love their children more than they hate us, we will have peace”

I will admit that I am not perfect, that my views on things are not perfect. Maybe I need to change the way that I think about these things, but I also think that maybe you should show a little more “Fear” and concern about what this is going to ultimately do to our society if it goes unchecked.

No Hate!
_________________________
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#58797 - 09/14/06 11:43 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Sugarnutz, the last thing I want to do is defend suicide bombers. As I said before, we need to do whatever we can to protect ourselves from them - infiltrate organizations, what have you (bearing in mind that so far we don't have them in this country, touch wood).

At the same time we have to look at why these people exist, and I simply don't believe your theory that it's in their religion and they have an entire culture of bloodthirsty lunatics who want nothing but to kill all infidels. Sure there are some people like that; we have gang members in our own cities who are unbelievably violent. But most people aren't like that, and the Iraqi population as a whole certainly isn't.

We've created anarchy, not security for ourselves. Not a good thing.

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#58798 - 09/14/06 11:48 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
John, I don't have an explanation for why the buildings collapsed like that.

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#58799 - 09/14/06 01:01 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 2449
Loc: Florida
Sure you do. Fire. A fire can certainly gut a building, but.....

No one has answered any of these "relevant" questions here, and no one has shown me one example, throughout history, before or after the attacks, that show a reinforced steel and concrete building collapsing due to fire. There's a reason for this. It doesn't happen because it is impossible. The NIST's own conclusions ruled out the pancake theory, too.

And Zum, that's a great list, but it wouldn't have taken that many people, and GWB could even have been left out of the loop.
_________________________
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#58800 - 09/14/06 01:22 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 2449
Loc: Florida
Check this out. A pea-brain with a doctorate wrote it.

debunking the official story

Here is one short excerpt:

Implosion World.com, a website about the demolition industry, states that an implosion is “by far the trickiest type of explosive project, and there are only a handful of blasting companies in the world that possess enough experience . . . to perform these true building implosions."[69] Can anyone really believe that fire would have just happened to produce the kind of collapse that can be reliably produced by only a few demolition companies in the world? The building had 24 core columns and 57 perimeter columns. To hold that fire caused this building to collapse straight down would mean believing that the fire caused all 81 columns to fail at exactly the same time. To accept the official story is, in other words, to accept a miracle. Physicist Steven Jones agrees, saying:

The likelihood of near-symmetrical collapse of WTC7 due to random fires (the "official" theory)---requiring as it does near-simultaneous failure of many support columns---is infinitesimal. I conclude that the evidence for the 9/11 use of pre-positioned explosives in WTC 7 (also in Towers 1 and 2) is truly compelling.[70]
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#58801 - 09/14/06 01:54 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zrocks Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Minneapolis
 Quote:
Originally posted by sscannon:
Sure you do. Fire. A fire can certainly gut a building, but.....

No one has answered any of these "relevant" questions here, and no one has shown me one example, throughout history, before or after the attacks, that show a reinforced steel and concrete building collapsing due to fire.
An excellent question. In all the investigation and scientific ciphering can anyone show me a single instance of a building the size and construction of the WTC towers having been struck by a fuel laden jet aircraft the size of a 767 not collapsing?

Of course there are instances of massive structural failures due to unanticipated events of plain carelessness on the part of the contractor. For example: Massive freeway collapses in and around the SF/Oakland area, Levee failures due to simply too much water, was there not a closure of a tunnel recently due to major chunks falling and crushing cars?

I still think they are good questions. But I think the answers are pretty good also.
_________________________
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Obviously I'm stupid.
And you're a quimbus.

~ Nick Batzdorf

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#58802 - 09/14/06 02:25 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
I hate to have to agree with Zumbido, but those are my feelings exactly. This has never happened before. Those were two of the tallest buildings in the world.

And what about people seeing planes fly into the Pentagon? That kind of makes you wonder. Plus the list of dead people was the same as the list of people on that flight.

The one story I think is open to question is "let's rock." That always sounded fishy. But the plane surely did crash, and I do believe it was headed for... was it the White House they said? Or the Capitol Building?

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#58803 - 09/14/06 02:57 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
john gee Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 362
the idea appears to have been

1. hit finance
2. hit military
3. hit whitehouse (goverment) ...failed

thus, a militarised government would need to be set up in emergency to run the country.

that plane failed to strike because it was blown out the sky by two f16s who managed to reach it in time, only by directly disobeying a stand-down order.

you don't find plane wreckage over an 8 mile radius of country side if its 'gone into a nose dive and crashed'

a plane striking the ground will not spread material eight miles wide upon impact.

however if you plant a missile into it at high altitude on route to the capital...

well, you don't need to be a genius to smell a rat with movie United-Flight93.

and its interesting Nick has never mentioned the multiple War Games exercises that Norad and the Airforce were running that day, confusing and obstructing any attempt by the military to react in time.

thank your lucky stars someone said 'no' and got a plane up, or you'd be under junta bush by now.
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#58804 - 09/14/06 04:04 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
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Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 7162
Loc: El Lay
"you don't find plane wreckage over an 8 mile radius of country side if its 'gone into a nose dive and crashed'"

So in between your high-level airplane crash consulting you find time to dribble here?

Wow!
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#58805 - 09/14/06 04:37 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
john gee Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 362
and you're what, calfornian?
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#58806 - 09/14/06 04:38 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 2449
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nick Batzdorf:
I hate to have to agree with Zumbido, but those are my feelings exactly. This has never happened before. Those were two of the tallest buildings in the world.

And what about people seeing planes fly into the Pentagon? That kind of makes you wonder. Plus the list of dead people was the same as the list of people on that flight.

The one story I think is open to question is "let's rock." That always sounded fishy. But the plane surely did crash, and I do believe it was headed for... was it the White House they said? Or the Capitol Building?
There you go again, mixing the damage from the planes crashing with the fire theory. This does nothing to explain, for example, WTC7, which sustained no impact. Why is it so hard to explain to me exactly how the fires severed every steel column in the building at the same time, causing a seemingly controlled collapse onto itself in a pile of rubble? Because it is impossible. As I write that sentence, it still seems absurd that people buy that story.

First- Yes, it has happened where planes flew into buildings, and it has broken into fires, and not collapsed. That is not directly, by itself, proof of anything in this case, perhaps, but you did say that it hasn't happened before. I was asking for any evidence of fire completely collapsing a reinforced steel and conrete building into it's own footprint, as in the case of WTC7. It hasn't happened. And never will. Except for 3 buildings recently insured against terror attacks by Silverstein in NYC on Sept. 11, 2001. Those are the only 3. Ever. For good reason. Did you read my link? Or was the car mag enough for you to stop reading? It is explained with science (you know, stuff that can be proven and recreated).

Second- The list of DNA IDs does not include everybody. The hijackers are not on the morgue list. But an intact passport from a hijacker was found, unburned (he was later discovered alive in another country, claiming his passport had been stolen). Ahh, the proof - we found his passport in the smoldering rubble!

Apparently, though, the fires burned about 1300 degrees hotter than jet fuel has ever been known to burn (reaching the melting point of hardened steel in just under an hour), and I don't recall elements from the Periodic Chart of the Elements changing their thermal properties, if even for a day (or 56 minutes).

Third, wasn't it "Let's Roll"?

It seems odd to me that it is accepted that WTC7 collapsed into it's own footprint due to fires. Even the stuctural engineers were baffled. But not mainstream 'merica. Hook, line, and sinker. And I am, last I checked, an American. I'm paying as much for this self-proclaimed "war president"'s war as you are, I just question the released version of the events of that day. The place wasn't even treated as a crime scene.

I don't want to confuse you with the facts, you've got your mind made up. And again, I never even gave any of this a second thought until the 5th anniversary was upon us and I started to ask questions. Apparently they were the same questions asked by the scholars for thruth. The more I look into the history of all the players in this "game", and the more the science doesn't support the official story, the more I raise an eyebrow.

I feel I am doing my patriotic, American "duty" to these families who lost innocent loved ones in this tragedy by trying to find out if there was any foul play.
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#58807 - 09/14/06 04:43 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
john gee Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 362
zumbido, post dimwitted comment
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#58808 - 09/14/06 04:44 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 2449
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by zumbido:
So in between your high-level airplane crash consulting you find time to dribble here?
This from a guy who links to a car mag as his end-all be-all authority on this subject, yet cannot answer one of my relevant questions?
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#58809 - 09/14/06 04:56 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Dan Weiss Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 07/20/99
Posts: 3650
Loc: New York NY USA
Another fishy bit about the pentagon is that out of some three or four surveillance cameras all that was publicly released was a split second clip of the impact. Surely the other cameras must have caught the incoming plane, no?

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#58810 - 09/14/06 05:05 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Mark Kluth Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 1920
Loc: Maui, Hawaii
You mean missile. They never provided any physical evidence that a 757 hit that building. No conclusive wreckage, photos, nothing. Just "eyewitnesses". Pay an actor enough and they'll say anything.
_________________________
Audiophile: "A gate IS a compressor, A Fader is a MANUAL compressor." Pure comedy.

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#58811 - 09/14/06 05:12 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
Founding Member
*

Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 7162
Loc: El Lay
"causing a seemingly controlled collapse onto itself in a pile of rubble? Because it is impossible."

I've no architectural/structural background.

However, my cousin, who is quite a successful architect, finds it completely probable.

"... yet cannot answer one of my relevant questions?"

Apparently, you haven't posted anything relevant.

The thing that one learns as they become smarter (me), is that there are experts - I'm not one in this field. I therefore, deferred you to a reliable source.

If you want to talk about music theory - I know way more than you, since I am an expert. Fire away.

I do not believe that 'Popular Mechanics' is a car-mag.

Uh, jonnygee-gee, I'm an American - you gotta problem with that?
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#58812 - 09/14/06 06:27 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 2449
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by zumbido:
I've no architectural/structural background.

However, my cousin, who is quite a successful architect, finds it completely probable.
Oh brother. Thanks for clearing that up. Of course you're not, and of course he does. So do 64% of 'mericans. I did study physics. And architecture is NOT engineering mechanics.

If you were a structural engineer, you would've had something useful to say, complete with facts and reasons, so we already knew you know nothing about the subject. It's just that you feel SO strongly that there is no possible way any involvement by our government was possible that I thought you might actually know something. That's all I'm looking for. Useful information.

So.... You really don't know. You're basing your beliefs (strong enough to try and belittle those who ask questions, i.e., pea brain) on what you DON'T know. You believe what someone told you.

To sum up, your cousin agrees with you, Popular Mechanics has the expert answers, and you agree with both them, so there is no reason to question the scholars and engineers who ask the same questions I do. Got it.

 Quote:
Originally posted by zumbido:
Apparently, you haven't posted anything relevant.
To whom? You? How about to the families of the victims? My friends who died in the tragedy? And what for? Or the families of the dead Iraqi cilvilians? That is a very thoughtless thing to say, all of this is relevant. It's like saying this is a game.

 Quote:
Originally posted by zumbido:
The thing that one learns as they become smarter (me), is that there are experts - I'm not one in this field. I therefore, deferred you to a reliable source.
The thing that one learns when they get older is that there is a lot of corruption in this world, and the US is no exception. Bush calls himself a "war president".

You consider yourself smarter, therefore, you sent me to Popular Mechanics, and I, therefore, deferred you back to the experts. Real experts in the field of engineering mechanics who also read that article and dissected every one of it's assumptions. They provided "irrelevant" facts disproving, in some cases with the government's own words and conclusions, each point in the magazine's article. But that is, apparently, irrelevant. Yer so smart. Shucks.

 Quote:
Originally posted by zumbido:
If you want to talk about music theory - I know way more than you, since I am an expert. Fire away.
Thanks. I, too have a degree in music, and you still probably know way more than me there, so put down the sword. I don't think I'll be asking any theory questions anytime soon, however, I'm too busy making music and chasing UFO conspiracy theories down at the local watering hole.

And why do they still call it "music theory"? They haven't proven that music exists yet? :p
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#58813 - 09/14/06 06:30 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 2449
Loc: Florida
By default, Mark, Dan, John, myself, etc. are all pea brains. These are some pretty smart guys, zum. I know you're not a structural engineer, but what about the videos at the Pentagon? Did they burn down in the towers? Maybe I'll ask an architect, he would surely know.
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#58814 - 09/14/06 06:32 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
john gee Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 362
zum, you're a ****ing raisin from what i can tell.

 Quote:
Surely the other cameras must have caught the incoming plane, no?
the pentagon is a MAJOR military installation.

it has hundreds of cameras from every conceivable angle, some overt , some covert, night day you name it.

1 camera ? zum mate, matey, pal, bro! help!
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#58815 - 09/14/06 06:59 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
Founding Member
*

Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 7162
Loc: El Lay
Gee, your comebacks are stingers. Please practice off-line.

Sean, the 'pea-sized brain' comment was purposefully used to incite.

If you took it personally, that was your choice.

Gullible bass-mouths, such as gee, take them hook, line and sinker.

As far as 'the possibilty' that the U.S. government did this? Sure, ANYTHING is possible - but exceedingly unlikely.

The reason gee likes conspiracies is because he actually posessess a pea-sized brain. He completely fulfills the profile of a dense, frightened, helpless person - very weak and still living with his mommy.
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#58816 - 09/14/06 07:03 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
 Quote:
By default, Mark, Dan, John, myself, etc. are all pea brains. These are some pretty smart guys, zum.
Mark is smart?!

Sean, the truth is that I don't know how to answer any of the questions about 9/11. I told you that I haven't made up my mind, I just believe the conspiracy theories to be totally unlikely. Right now you've said a whole bunch of things that I don't know to be true. How do we establish that the terrorists' names really aren't on the morgue list or that one guy turned up somewhere else, for example? Or that those buildings were insured just before they were knocked down (an even less plausible connection even if it's true, because some building owner isn't going to be privvy to coup attempts).

And so on. There's a lot of nonsense circulating around, and it's impossible to separate it from the truth. After that you have to decide what the evidence actually means.

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#58817 - 09/14/06 07:54 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 2449
Loc: Florida
Well, with that said, you admit there are some unanswered questions. They really are there. Wouldn't it be nice to know how these unexplained phenomenon actually occurred? The trucks full of gold, the missing videos, WTC7 with all the ongoing litigation files, etc.

And unlikely is a good word to describe the theory if an internal conspiracy. But those darned questions.......Unlikely, but not to be entirely ruled out, no?

And, I don't think the connection is necessarily not plausible, given the ties with large money and this administration. Besides, he is not just some building owner, he owns THE WORLD TRADE CENTER. World Trade. Big Money. And he said the smartest thing to do was "pull it". Sure. This wasn't a Holiday Inn.

I think, or thought, the whole idea is unlikely myself, but I just can't completely rule it out.
_________________________
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#58818 - 09/14/06 07:59 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Well, I know that I don't know the answers to those questions. I don't know that they haven't been answered.

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#58819 - 09/14/06 08:17 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 2449
Loc: Florida
I'll bet someone does. No names mentioned, just initials: Dick Cheney.
_________________________
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#58820 - 09/14/06 08:25 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
IGOTTA S.O.N. Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/02
Posts: 120
Loc: Asia (Major)
It'll all be revealed in time gents. And when it does some of you won't be able to carry weight and will eventually blow your own brains out. Whilst the so-called wackos will be doing what has to be done to survive minus taking the mark of course. Though I'm already some what marked via this DOD issued smart card with a chip in it. So agrue and spew the facts and myths back and forth, cuz without chaos or the appearance of it, there won't be a NWO. Get those Euros ready baby cuz your dollars ain't gonna cut it sooner than you thank!!!
_________________________
GET THE B.O.Z.A.C.K.!!!!

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#58821 - 09/14/06 08:28 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
That's Penis Cheney, Sean.

Hey Igotta - what's NWO?

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#58822 - 09/14/06 08:42 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 2449
Loc: Florida
New World Order?
_________________________
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www.mixingtheband.com

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#58823 - 09/14/06 10:27 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Kecinzer Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 11/08/01
Posts: 3464
Loc: MA, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by IGOTTA S.O.N.:
Get those Euros ready baby cuz your dollars ain't gonna cut it sooner than you thank!!!
I'm afraid you're right on this.
\:\(
_________________________
See?

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#58824 - 09/15/06 04:48 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
ynghermes Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 11/09/00
Posts: 3076
I took structual engineering, my dad was the prez of the ironworkers union and biz agent, I know metal from many angels and have seen many strange things that can be done with it, those buildings falling down that way in that amount of time is not one of them.

I am a conspericy guy also and many of us here will become one also when the secret government gets to you to. I also have a very high government security clearance and had it for decades. My CIA file starts when I was 8 years old and my FBI starts at 9. I was refused to go to the southern pacific with my dad on a building project for the government when I was 13 - hmm wounder why? I got my clearance at 18.

You can fool most of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. If you think that the WTO, OWG (one world government) and the G8, Boheamean Grove, more than most of our politicians in the G8, skull and crossbones are not all in it together you are sheeple, or a government plant on this fourm to debunk the questions - really.

Wate till some guy you have never seen comes up to you in his admrial uniform and starts talking to you and knows your name, that will change your mind real fast, or tells you something you should be the only one who knows about something you did by your self, that will open your eyes.

The problem is that we are so lazy and want the government to protect us and make our retirement happy that we willingly give our rights away and wounder why there are things that we can't explain why the government does them, well thats a sheeple for ya. Ask the questions and keep asking till you get a reasonable answer, then you know your not sheeple. I am considered a maveric by government standards and thought it was strange, now I know it is because I am a free thinker and that is not a good thing in government, wish more of us here were. ;\)

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#58825 - 09/15/06 12:18 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Mark Kluth Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 1920
Loc: Maui, Hawaii
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nick Batzdorf:
Mark is smart?!
No, bozo, I was able to retire at age 41 and move my family to Maui because I'm a drooling idiot.

How is it, Nick, that you profess to despise everything Shrub says and does... you can't even look at his face... yet you accept his explanation for 9/11 hook, line and sinker and believe that nothing at all fishy was involved?
_________________________
Audiophile: "A gate IS a compressor, A Fader is a MANUAL compressor." Pure comedy.

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#58826 - 09/15/06 12:38 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
Founding Member
*

Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 7162
Loc: El Lay
"I was able to retire at age 41"

Damn! You beat me by 3 years.

I was a late bloomer, I guess.

;\)
_________________________
Obama is guilty of fraud and inducement.

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#58827 - 09/15/06 01:37 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Mark, I'm not a great fan of David Berkowitz (Son of Sam) either, but I'd believe him hook, line, and sinker if he told me he wasn't responsible for 9/11.

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#58828 - 09/15/06 01:44 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Mark Kluth Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 1920
Loc: Maui, Hawaii
What, are you trying to be funny? Pam Anderson told me she had nothing to do with it either. Try answering the actual question this time:

"How is it, Nick, that you profess to despise everything Shrub says and does... you can't even look at his face... yet you accept his explanation for 9/11 hook, line and sinker and believe that nothing at all fishy was involved?"
_________________________
Audiophile: "A gate IS a compressor, A Fader is a MANUAL compressor." Pure comedy.

Top
#58829 - 09/15/06 04:19 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
What do you want me to say, Mark? I believe Bush is a total See You Next Tuesday, but I don't believe he was responsible for 9/11.

Where's the conflict?

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#58830 - 09/15/06 04:21 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
GlennR01 Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 5136
 Quote:
Originally posted by zumbido:
"I was able to retire at age 41"

Damn! You beat me by 3 years.

I was a late bloomer, I guess.

;\)
How do you make $5 million in the music industry? Start with $10 million \:\(

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#58831 - 09/15/06 04:31 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
jeremy hesford Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 05/06/99
Posts: 6219
Loc: odenton md.
There was a documentary explaining how the 2 WTC came down, very detailed with alot of model examples. Basicly it had to do with the way the building was designed. The intense heat of the fire melted the supporting structure on the floor the plane crashed into. Once one floor came down on the one below it, it was a domino effect.

There was no doubt about that. They even had the guy who designed the WTC towers on this documentary.
But there was no planted explosives to bring down the 2 towers.

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#58832 - 09/15/06 05:16 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
john gee Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 362
mmmnnn,


no offense, i saw said documentary, advocating the pancaking effect, and its balonely.

one floor slamming into the other?

wouldn't that leave a load of floors pilled up on the bottom, with the central column poking up through the top like a coctail stick through a party snack?

one floor hitting the other would reduce the descent of the building as it fell. it would incurr friction and shock.

the building fell at near gravitational speed.

the entire building, bar steel was atomised to dust. no furniture, no concrete slabs, no whole items, nothing. atomised.

collapse cannot do that

only massive energetic explosions do that.

look at the debri field as it drops. material is being ejected from the sides like a cannon, its ejecting at a hundred or more feet out...

you also have pipes and steam pipes (service pipes etc) cracking and bursting all over the building .

collapsing 'floors' from the top would not do this.

only a deliberate weaking of the skelatal structure through out the building could do this, initially with denotation cutters and then bigger charges uses to sever the main column, from the top down.

no offense again, but not factoring-in jet fuel into the equation of a plane-resistant designed building is ludicrous.

(jet fuel doesn't melt steel)

top down demolition.

Company that ran security of the WTC buildings tied to Marvin Bush, who had parallel contracts and dealings with the military and others (Securacom).

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/911security.html
_________________________
The Constitution is kooky?

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#58833 - 09/15/06 06:38 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Mark Kluth Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: 10/25/99
Posts: 1920
Loc: Maui, Hawaii
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nick Batzdorf:
What do you want me to say, Mark? I believe Bush is a total See You Next Tuesday, but I don't believe he was responsible for 9/11.

Where's the conflict?
Just illustrating your lack of consistency...

"I think Bush's entire administration made their foreign policy decisions based on insane ideology cooked up in the PNAC think tank. They hyped each other up to the point that anyone with any sense was thrown out."

"But the reason they doctored the intelligence is what I said: they've worked each other up into believing some very strange ideology. They believe it so fervently that small things like doctoring intelligence - or for that matter firing administrators of scientific organizations that won't come up with lies to support their ideology - are perfectly justified in their minds."

And even after making these observations, you still refuse to believe that these people couldn't morally have made the decision to sacrifice thousands of innocent civilians to make billions and further their cause for war? How many innocent civilians have died so far in the "war on terror" on either "side"? They don't seem to have a problem with those numbers, either.

You took great pains to establish that these people are basically insane. Is it such a huge logical step to believe that they were even more involved at a basic level than previously thought?
_________________________
Audiophile: "A gate IS a compressor, A Fader is a MANUAL compressor." Pure comedy.

Top
#58834 - 09/15/06 07:02 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 2449
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by jeremy hesford:
There was a documentary explaining how the 2 WTC came down, very detailed with alot of model examples. Basicly it had to do with the way the building was designed. The intense heat of the fire melted the supporting structure on the floor the plane crashed into. Once one floor came down on the one below it, it was a domino effect.

There was no doubt about that. They even had the guy who designed the WTC towers on this documentary.
But there was no planted explosives to bring down the 2 towers.
Thanks for clearing that up. :p You sound so sure, too.

Actually, we have been discussing this for about 150 posts so far, and that is not the only documentary out there. Follow my link above. The pancake theory has since been disproven, and the fire theory. But when that documentary came out, we all believed it. Why not? There's good reason why not.
_________________________
Check your mix in mono.
www.mixingtheband.com

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#58835 - 09/15/06 07:08 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Kecinzer Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 11/08/01
Posts: 3464
Loc: MA, USA
This thread is so freaking frightening that I would definitely run to the nearest mountains with my survival gear in my sack if I just wasn't so entertained by all this conspiracy crap. Really funny stuff. I should send this link to George Noory to have it posted on the Coast To Coast website. \:D
_________________________
See?

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#58836 - 09/15/06 07:15 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Andrew K Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/19/99
Posts: 2218
Loc: LA, CA, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by sscannon:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jeremy hesford:
There was a documentary explaining how the 2 WTC came down, very detailed with alot of model examples. Basicly it had to do with the way the building was designed. The intense heat of the fire melted the supporting structure on the floor the plane crashed into. Once one floor came down on the one below it, it was a domino effect.

There was no doubt about that. They even had the guy who designed the WTC towers on this documentary.
But there was no planted explosives to bring down the 2 towers.
Thanks for clearing that up. :p You sound so sure, too.

Actually, we have been discussing this for about 150 posts so far, and that is not the only documentary out there. Follow my link above. The pancake theory has since been disproven, and the fire theory. But when that documentary came out, we all believed it. Why not? There's good reason why not.
I'll ask my father-in-law. He's a structural engineer here in LA who does some of the tallest buildings in the world. He used to work with Skidmore Owens and Merril (SOM) he has left them long ago and is a partner in a firm that does sky scrapers all over the world and he also knows all the earthquake crap that goes along with it.

I'll ask him and report back to you hosers... and you'll excuse me if I take his 40+ years experience over some conspiracy theory links.

Oh... and he was one of the structural engineers for the Sears Towers.

Cheers,

AK

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#58837 - 09/15/06 07:33 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
Founding Member
*

Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 7162
Loc: El Lay
john gee,

Do you have anything to do with 'music'?

I only ask because you've become rather monotonous. Maybe try writing a new tune - One Note Samba was already done, so no plagiarizing.
_________________________
Obama is guilty of fraud and inducement.

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#58838 - 09/15/06 07:52 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 2449
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kecinzer:
This threat is so freaking frightening that I would definitely run to the nearest mountings with my survival gear in my sack if I just wasn't so entertained by all this conspiracy crap. Really funny stuff. I should send this link to George Noory to have it posted on the Coast To Coast website. \:D
What threat?
_________________________
Check your mix in mono.
www.mixingtheband.com

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#58839 - 09/15/06 08:23 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
jeremy hesford Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 05/06/99
Posts: 6219
Loc: odenton md.
I'm sorry guys, but I think you've pretty much lost it to think there were planted explosives in the 2 towers that we somehow new the terrorists were going to fly into.

Get back into the studio and make music.

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#58840 - 09/15/06 09:16 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 2449
Loc: Florida
It is far fetched. I just wish it was that easy for me to accept everything that is spoon-fed me from the media and our blatantly Christian government. But, back to making music......
_________________________
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#58841 - 09/16/06 12:38 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Kecinzer Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 11/08/01
Posts: 3464
Loc: MA, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by sscannon:
What threat?
Make it "thread" "D" as a "Dumb a s s"
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#58842 - 09/16/06 06:30 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Dan Weiss Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 07/20/99
Posts: 3650
Loc: New York NY USA
Nice

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#58843 - 09/16/06 07:04 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
Founding Member
*

Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 7162
Loc: El Lay
Okay, I got the "D" typo in 'threat'.

But...

"run to the nearest mountings"

... what is a 'mountings'?

"... George Noory ... Coast To Coast..."

Now I know what you 'late-nighters' stay up for.
_________________________
Obama is guilty of fraud and inducement.

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#58844 - 09/16/06 10:45 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 2449
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kecinzer:
 Quote:
Originally posted by sscannon:
What threat?
Make it "thread" "D" as a "Dumb a s s"
Spell check much? And I thought it was "smart" ass.
_________________________
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#58845 - 09/16/06 11:34 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Quoth Klute:

 Quote:
And even after making these observations, you still refuse to believe that these people couldn't morally have made the decision to sacrifice thousands of innocent civilians to make billions and further their cause for war? How many innocent civilians have died so far in the "war on terror" on either "side"? They don't seem to have a problem with those numbers, either.

You took great pains to establish that these people are basically insane. Is it such a huge logical step to believe that they were even more involved at a basic level than previously thought?
I do see your point, Mark, I always have. But yes, I do feel that it's a huge step from conspiring to sell a war in a foreign land to staging an absolutely terrible attack on your own country.

Viewing it from a different angle, I get the feeling that you guys may be missing what I believe led to the attacks in the first place; I can't help thinking that if you saw that, you'd be less focused on the way the buildings collapsed and more on the bigger picture.

The idea that a huge group of bloodthirsty lunatics wants to kill us all for no reason other than that we don't practice their religion sounds pretty simplistic, doesn't it. In fact it goes against everything I believe about human beings (with the qualification that there certainly are *some* people like that). I've explained many times that I believe Western imperialism over the years has much more to do with what's happening than most people realize, since we don't see it from here. But why were we "the great Satan" in 1979, for example? Was there no reason at all?

Yet "they want to kill us for no reason" is the sales pitch that goes with the "war on terrorism." If you tie what I and most people believe happened on 9/11 to that, it's easy to see why you might be less inclined to believe the standard explanation.

That's just conjecture on my part; I may well be wrong. However, I have yet to hear one person who agrees with Bush say he or she believes any of these conspiracy theories.

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#58846 - 09/16/06 12:26 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
GlennR01 Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 5136
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nick Batzdorf:
Yet "they want to kill us for no reason" is the sales pitch that goes with the "war on terrorism." If you tie what I and most people believe happened on 9/11 to that, it's easy to see why you might be less inclined to believe the standard explanation.
And "they" loved us just fine when the CIA funneled money and weapons to our now terrorist enemies, while we were covertly fighting the Russians when they were mired in their own version of Vietnam in Afghanistan.

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#58847 - 09/17/06 08:59 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zrocks Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Minneapolis
Having worked with steel as a blacksmith - I was a hobby blacksmith, my friend made a living at it.

The problem with the WTC explosive theory is that they rely on the burning temperature of steel as a focal point as to why the buildings could not fall.

I helped my blacksmith friend make ornamental jewelery and plant hangers, fireplace tools and other stuff. Often we used old car springs which is tempered steel. Heat destroys the temper of steel. Steel does not magically hold its strength until it bursts into flames, the more heat it has, the softer it becomes.

Rivits and welds are a weak point in any steel constructed building. The towers were not made from a single piece of tempered steel 110 stories tall. It was pieced together like tinker toys and relies on welds and rivits to hold the pieces together. Usually, the joined pieces are engineered to hold the stress. However, introduce heat and the force needed to overcome the stress and shear the support is significantly less than normal.

If you have an opportunity, watch a blacksmith size a shoe for a horse. Not a lot of heat is needed to made the adjustments. In fact too much heat will soften the steel so much that it will become too soft.

Steel is a great conductor of heat. I would suspect that the burning inside the WTC would have eventually caused the failure of several joints. Other joints which were softened by the heat needed very little force to fail. The towers collapse began at the point of impact (pretty good guess as to where to place explosives if you were going to bring a building down). The planes had to be flown exactly to the predetermined floor.

Wouldn't the impact and fires have destroyed the preset explosives?

I did notice a difference in the WTC7 and building demolition videos. The difference was that the WTC7 building was burning and had been burning for many hours prior to the collapse.

I have to rule out the more complicated theories presented by others because they ask me to ignore my experience and rely on a much less plausible theory.
_________________________
zrocks for urinal.
Obviously I'm stupid.
And you're a quimbus.

~ Nick Batzdorf

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#58848 - 09/17/06 11:22 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
john gee Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 362
 Quote:
I did notice a difference in the WTC7 and building demolition videos. The difference was that the WTC7 building was burning and had been burning for many hours prior to the collapse
burning what exactly? office furniture? he he heh!

people can walk through office fires, you ever tried walking through a blast furnace? nope.

sllliiigggghhhhhttttt difference in temp there, mate.

nice try, now try again.

look at the video again in comparison to a 'classic center column take down, followed by corner girder cutters, with folding or crimping at the centre of the building (most visible on the roof as it folds in onitself, not outward).

they look exactly the same

same behaviour

same rate of freefall

same observable symptoms - smoke plumes from the widows as the charges explode

same crimping.

the possibility that internally, there is any different scenario taking place, is hundreds of millions to one, to make the exacty same outcome.

namely falling linearly, neatly into its own footprint.

this is the goal of demolition experts and why insurers pay $Millions for their expertees.
_________________________
The Constitution is kooky?

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#58849 - 09/17/06 11:52 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zrocks Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Minneapolis
 Quote:
Originally posted by john gee:
 Quote:
I did notice a difference in the WTC7 and building demolition videos. The difference was that the WTC7 building was burning and had been burning for many hours prior to the collapse
burning what exactly? office furniture? he he heh!

people can walk through office fires, you ever tried walking through a blast furnace? nope.

sllliiigggghhhhhttttt difference in temp there, mate.

nice try, now try again.

look at the video again in comparison to a 'classic center column take down, followed by corner girder cutters, with folding or crimping at the centre of the building (most visible on the roof as it folds in onitself, not outward).

they look exactly the same

same behaviour

same rate of freefall

same observable symptoms - smoke plumes from the widows as the charges explode

same crimping.

the possibility that internally, there is any different scenario taking place, is hundreds of millions to one, to make the exacty same outcome.

namely falling linearly, neatly into its own footprint.

this is the goal of demolition experts and why insurers pay $Millions for their expertees.
Simply put, you are a complete moron. Sorry if I have offended any morons.
_________________________
zrocks for urinal.
Obviously I'm stupid.
And you're a quimbus.

~ Nick Batzdorf

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#58850 - 09/17/06 12:13 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Kecinzer Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 11/08/01
Posts: 3464
Loc: MA, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by zumbido:

... what is a 'mountings'?
Just installed my monitors on a couple of nice VESA "mountings" Thank you for correcting ... especially late at night my fingers run much faster than my brain ;\) off to the mountains now \:D
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#58851 - 09/17/06 01:17 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
Founding Member
*

Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 7162
Loc: El Lay
Nice:

john gee



Member
Member # 1342
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Obama is guilty of fraud and inducement.

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#58852 - 09/17/06 02:10 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
john gee Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 362
 Quote:
Simply put, you are a complete moron. Sorry if I have offended any morons.
I noticed you didn't answer any of my points.
How very Amerikan.

Sorry if I have offended any Americans.

And to Zumbido.
Sorry, this is Osama. Do you remember him? I just thought you might have forgotten him. After all!, he could strike at any time, and you need to be that bit extra frosty and alert! I'm doing you a service!

You should be watching your neighbours! Reporting on them! They could be in cahoots with Bin Lately!

The Patriot ACT demands it! Your not anti-amerikun are you? r'ya wit'thuu terrurists, huh?!

(ps I can change it to Saddam if your memory doesn't stretch back that far. I'm flexible)
_________________________
The Constitution is kooky?

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#58853 - 09/17/06 03:05 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 2449
Loc: Florida
Zrocks- your explanation means that the connections gave way starting at the point the planes hit. Then the floors gave way, and they pancaked to the bottom. I'd like to believe that, but the pancake theory was disproven.

And, WTC7 fell into it's own footprint at the speed of free fall, as did the 2 towers. So all steel supports in WTC7 gave way at the same time, leaving no support from the bottom up, yet the fires were at least 7 floors up. It didn't even lean towards the weaker side, the side that was on fire, it went straight down at free fall speed. Can you explain that to me? Obviously you have an intimate knowledge of the thermal and tensile strength properties of steel. How, exactly, did WTC7 fall so neatly? Is there any other case, before or after Sept. 11th, 2001, where fire has caused a steel and concrete building to free-fall like that?That certainly wasn't a top-down collapse. In both of these cases, there are problems with the theory.

I'm not saying GWB planted bombs in the 3 buildings, but there are experts, or morons, as you like to call them, who say something else must have happened. It is funny to note that anybody who questions the official story, scholar or not, is a moron around these parts. Morons don't question the propoganda, morons blindly follow. I'm not saying there aren't morons out there with outrageous theories, but scholars with high level degrees in mechanics and physics? There are too many holes in your assumptions to call someone else a moron. You use words like "I suspect". Again, explain step by step how WTC7 fell demolition style at free fall speed into it's own footprint if you are so sure. I'm not looking for name-calling, just definitive answers.

mo?ron? [mawr-on, mohr-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a person who is notably stupid or lacking in good judgment.
2. Psychology. a person of borderline intelligence in a former classification of mental retardation, having an intelligence quotient of 50 to 69.

Hardly applies to scholars.
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#58854 - 09/17/06 04:12 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zumbido Offline
Founding Member
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Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 7162
Loc: El Lay
john gee,

I found an avatar image better suited for you:

[img]http://mud.mm-a5.yimg.com/image/2044759077[/img]

Feel free to use it at your leisure.
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#58855 - 09/17/06 05:45 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Kecinzer Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 11/08/01
Posts: 3464
Loc: MA, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kecinzer:
 Quote:
Originally posted by zumbido:
Nice:

john gee



Member
Member # 1342
More like John Geehad
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See?

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#58856 - 09/17/06 07:06 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
sscannon Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 2449
Loc: Florida
\:D
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#58857 - 09/17/06 07:43 PM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Nick Batzdorf Offline
Founding Member

Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 12161
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
\:D

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#58858 - 09/18/06 05:14 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
zrocks Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Minneapolis
 Quote:
Originally posted by sscannon:
Zrocks- your explanation means that the connections gave way starting at the point the planes hit. Then the floors gave way, and they pancaked to the bottom. I'd like to believe that, but the pancake theory was disproven.
Disproven? By whom? If it was disproven by people who would mislead you into thinking steel remains perfectly strong and rigid unless exposed to blast furnace temperatures, then I am sorry but my actual experience has shown me that this assumption is incorrect. Steel softens with heat and loses its temper with heat. Steel can be bent, cut, reformed and pliable without reaching blast furnace temperature. If you watch the video of the WTC falling, the top floors (at least 15 stories of building), fell onto the rest of the structure. Although moving slowly at first, this is a massive force (force = mass X Velocity (squared)). I doubt that the building was engineered for the weight of 15 stories dropping on it.

WTC7 was a fuel and power depot building. It housed machinery and fuel for emergencies. In the video, the building can be seen rupturing in the middle. If is as if the center support gives way and falls (perhaps just one story). Try this with tinker toys or something similiar. Remove a small section in the middle and the sides will become stressed (like bending a stick) and fail at the weakest point (the joints). Once the supporting skeletal frame has been broken in several place to relieve stress, why would it go anywhere except straight down?

The morons are not the scholars. Scholars with agendas are simply dishonest. The morons are the individuals who rally behind the dishonest scholars and think I will follow what I know to be wrong.

Exploring possibilities is a good thing but if it becomes an all consuming mantra, I have to step aside.

For me, I find the hands-on experience with various grades of steel and heat to be a more convincing explaination than a massive conspiracy involving precise timing by hundreds of people masterminded by a guy who can't tie his shoes in the morning.
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#58859 - 09/18/06 07:49 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
john gee Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 362
 Quote:
WTC7 was a fuel and power depot building. It housed machinery and fuel for emergencies. In the video, the building can be seen rupturing in the middle. If is as if the center support gives way and falls (perhaps just one story). Try this with tinker toys or something similiar. Remove a small section in the middle and the sides will become stressed (like bending a stick) and fail at the weakest point (the joints). Once the supporting skeletal frame has been broken in several place to relieve stress, why would it go anywhere except straight down?
If your absurd and poorly thought-through idea were true, all modern steel framed buildings (i.e similar to WTC7) would need to be decomissioned or reassessed immediately. There would need to be massive reassessments of how designers build buildings and the whole industry would need to self review, costing $100 millions

this hasn't happened because your idea is bunk.

soo let me see, fuel in the WTC caused the centre column to be destroyed, you sayd.

if might have been due to machinery, you guess.

get a clue, you spastic.

the owner admitted on a PBS special called 'American Rebuilds' that they decided to PULL the building.

All that fancy talk of your experience of contruction, metal work and steel, and yet you CANNOT tell me what the construction term 'PULL IT' means?

Silverstein admitted it. It's on the record. Try again.

john geehad? ha ha haeh, very good. \:\)
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#58860 - 09/18/06 08:04 AM Re: OT: The genius of Bush
Justin Offline

Site Admin
Founding Member
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Registered: 04/15/99
Posts: 3276
Loc: Portland, OR
This topics is now too long (and too boring) so I'm closing her down.
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