Because it just does. Ok now, this has got to **** somebody off, let's get it on!

Now, there's the Jeremy we all know and love!
ceb

Well, I'm not sure about abreviations, but normally an " 's " is informing of possession. Of course it also is used when a contraction is used such as "don't" or "ain't". In this case, however, one might make the case that perhaps the title of the topic is just not complete. The word "blow" in the topic might be construed as a noun instead of a verb. In this case, "PT" would be the total abreviation of "ProTools" (being used as an adjective) and the " 's " would indicate that "blow" would be the noun that "ProTools" describes or modifies. Then one could finish the title of the post in the manner...
"Why does PT's Blow... feel so good?"
Or not.

I don't think ProTools "blows" per se - just think that there are better sounding alternatives. I prefer (remember I said "prefer") the sound of RADAR, Nuendo, a well maintained, well aligned analog machine. But this subject has been debated here and in many other forums - if you can capture a great performance on ProTools and it translates into a compelling recording, more power to you.

This is, indeed, a mystery. I think that Jeremy is allowing us to use our imaginations and conjure up an ending to the incomplete question. Then again, how can we be sure just what "PT" stands for? Up here in southwest CT, we're all very familiar with PT Barnum, the renowned circus promoter from Bridgeport. Now, I have no conclusive evidence to support this theory, but perhaps Mr. Barnum had a cocaine habit on which Jeremy is attempting to shed some light. I will certainly delve deeper into this matter and get back to you as details come forth.

Ok I'll bite.

Few would argue, Digidesign Protools is the DAW used by the majority of major artists/studios. Lenny Kravitz is known for using Protools for many years. Protools Core and Farm PCI cards use a technology called TDM (Time Division Multiplexing) which allows real-time operation of DSP (Digital Signal Processing). Essentially this means you can plug-and-play as many eq, compressor and effects plugins as your DSP allows. You can really pile on tracks and tracks with many, many instances of plugins with Protools and it records and plays with great reliability. Protools also has excellent editing of both audio and midi files. Some would argue the midi implementation is not the greatest in Protools - personally I find it very easy to use.
Protools plugins are often refered to as TDM or RTAS (real time audio suite). Protools does use the CPU power of your computer but it doesn't weight down the processor like other DAWs on a PC can. The Macintosh OS (in my opinion OS9) is particulary well suited for handling large amounts of audio. If you've ever had a DAW program choke or crash on you - with the right Protools setup - you really never experience this. That's why it still is the pro's choice - it's rock solid. You can also exchange Protools sessions with other major studios, producers or engineers.

Why do some people (such as Jeremy) poo-poo Protools. Mainly because it's expensive. Really to get a Protools setup with computer interface and some plugins like Waves you need $15,000. Is this a lot of money for a DAW? Sure. But once you've tried Protools and spent some time learning what it can do - other DAWs look like crap. I personally have yet to see a PC DAW where you can hear the signal effected directly through the software with no latency (delay). I dig Nuendo but would hate to have to track with it because of the latency. Also, Windows OS - including XP really isn't great when tracking many simulatneous tracks (e.g. 16 tracks simultaneos at 44.1/24bit). Chokes, stalls and crashes - very common when you try this. Why? well, remember - Nuendo is relying on the power of your PC's CPU which is busy handling video and other tasks - Protools has it's own hardware taking care of it.

If you're not convinced, spend a day with a real Protools engineer at tracking and mixing. For so many people - it's how you get work done.

A lot of people on here prefer hard disk recorders. I respect that they just don't feel comfortable using computers to track. But I can tell you - with Protools - tracking is a lot more fun and functional. You can see in real time for example if your drummer is in time with the click track and, if you're good at editing, you can fix mistakes during tracking and verify if they're fixable or if they need to be re-recorded. That's the power of Protools.

Sorry Jeremy, but when you say Protools sucks - you don't know what you're talking about.

Are there things I'd don't like about Protools, sure. Here's a few...

- not really VST or VSTi compatible
- expensive/some plugins are really expensive
- no cd burning utility built in
- have to bounce in real-time
- interfaces hardware expensive and don't offer the most flexible expansion without spending more
- company is inflexible with upgrades - they stick to whatever dates they post to the exact date.

I'm sure there's more. But if you need a really good reason to go Protools - here's one...

Be compatible with pro studios.

This is more of a question than a reply.

For you PT guys...
I've got a bunch of external MIDI boxes.
With DP, they all show up including patch names.
The MIDI editing works really well and they all play with good timing.
I've always heard that PT has somewhat primitive MIDI implementation.
If I spent the $15,000 would PT see my synths and patchlists?

Didn't someone win big on Jeopardy with this answer?
I believe the catagory was "Daw She Blows!" and the 1000 dollar puzzle was "Because it's overpriced and the company has an elitist attitude".

"ummm .. Why does Pro Tool's blow Alex?"



I have a PT HD192 system that I use when clients demand it but I prefer to work with DP 3.11 and do so 90% of the time as I find PT's limited graphics/window layout a PITA.
To be fair I have friends who consider DPs complex window layout a PITA and prefer PTs because of it.
FWIW I don't do any MIDI and primarily work at 24/44.1.

Dig guys. When you're talking about how PT "sounds", remember this: The sound you get into PT depends solely on the path you take to get there. This is also true with Hard Disk recorders such as the MX2424(my choice). Once you get there, PT is probably quite nice at managing and maneuvering your tracks. So,if you want your music to sound good, invest in the best DA/AD converter you can get as well as mic pre's and microphones. I personalloy recommend recording all basic tracks analog and then transferring(via the top ADDA) to whatever digital format you want.

Yes guy's, i'm glad to see your expanding your horizons with just the topic itself. Finally a good laugh. It's been alittle boring around here lately. Lenny Cravets? No wonder his music blows, he uses blow tools. Ahhhh, this feels so good.

No, you have to spend $16,000 for that.

Just kidding. Under OS 9, Pro Tools uses OMS and OMS Patchlists. Under OS X, it uses CoreMIDI just like everything else (including Performer); I actually don't know how patchlists work under CoreMIDI since I only have one toe in OS X. Good question; later today I'll boot up under Panther and see how that works.

(The other reason I don't know about patchlists is that I use soft instruments 99% of the time - even if they're on separate computers.)

...although in all fairness, I used only K2500 for the biggest gig I had last year. It always seems to have the synth sound you need right there, and when you have to turn something around in a couple of hours...

Nick -

I don't think most users have a good understanding of what Protools is like. I know what it is like for them because prior to being fortunate enough to own a Protools rig, I felt exactly the same way. At that time (1999-2000) I thought - why the hell can't I just use a PC DAW. I remember using Cooledit pro with my DA7 and a Frontier Designs Dakota card. I worked hard to make as rock solid a pc as I could and was pretty sure it would all work. As we tracked though and got into more and more data the results were not good - lots of dropouts and delays.

After witnessing hundreds of hours, session after session of both Mac Protools Mix+ and Mac Protools HD systems - the reliability is just there.

You know, I really dig SoundForge on a PC - it's a great app. But we're talking two or four tracks. I would hesistate to use it or CD Architect.

My advice to anyone looking at DAWs is - save and get Protools. But also use PCs for other tasks - get the best of both worlds.

Nick you know Protools. Tell 'em.

Quickly skimmed the Kevin Shirley article in EQ - he dropped $100k for his hd rig - and had much to say on real-world use and why he does use PT and why its a pain to use (rental rigs always have problems - i.e. - protools is a pain in the butt to get and keep configured without interfering with it)... but people do get work done on it - which is why I think it remains the kingpin (as well as sorta having first mover advantage - having been around longer than any software based daw - in various incarnations)... He speaks of the "air" that hd (or higher sampling rates) captures...

I hate Pro Tools! If I would have went the Pro Tools route 4 years ago I would not have been able to afford my awesome sounding, very intuitive, reliable DA7! I too used Cool Edit Pro very VERY successful with a SS Mixtreme TDIF card, and for digital audio recording/editing I would have put that system up against PT any day! I was so happy that I had such a solid good system with out having to buy Pro Tools.
Now I am using Nuendo and can definately hear what I have been missing. I have had zero crashes(W2K) in the last three years(whew)! (Before that I was on Win 98 ) Its all about how your sytem is optimized and the compatiblity of hardware components. I still hate Pro Tools!
Rich

I started on PT over 12 years ago, and was unfortunately part of their non paid R&D team - which was of great inconvenience and the source of lots of aggravation to me. Several other sketchy at best business practices' solely designed to bilk their own clientele has left me with a bad taste in my mouth for digidesign. digi really lost me back in the day when I was forced to buy their stand alone house sync (a video ref input) with a proprietary connection on it for $1200 when it should have been on the interface anyway! If I'm not mistaken, the thing didn't even generate blackburst!! that is some greedy **** for a box that probably cost them $100 to make!

I've been using DP for years now, and find it comparable and better for MIDI based work, particularly scoring, and the interfaces MOTU makes and sells have great value.

That being said, for any sort of involved editorial work in the film world, I still use PT because the software just kicks ass in those applications and I've used it that way for so long. DP has taken great strides to close this gap too, and soon my copy of PT free will be getting even less use than it does now, which was only a couple of times in '03.

I recently watched a movie called MAX. It was about this art dealer who met Hitler, before he was totally physco. Anyway in the movie the dealer was asked why his art was so expensive? His reply was "because nobody would buy it". People get the perception that something is great when it is expensive and only elitists (or few)can afford to spend the money on it. That's how I always felt about Pro Tools.
:p

And speaking of Hitler...

It wasn’t until Pro-Tools came along that companies such as Otari/Waveframe, SADIE and Sonic Solutions dominated the film-video postproduction and music recording/mastering markets with systems starting at $50k.

Yes, manufactures like EMU/Paris, Soundscape, IQS/SAW, Turtle Beach, Event and many others tried to out-market DIGI in the mid-priced Native ProTools LE and 001 arena only to fail miserably and in most cases were never heard of again.

As to whether MOTU, Steinberg, Lexicon (Harmon), Mackie (Loud) and even Sony/Sonic Foundary are able to challenge the AVID/Digidesign/Focusrite "(Verticle) Marketing Goliaths" in capturing the project studio/hobbyist DAW market, remains to be seen… But, even if they could, are they able to do what it takes to survive in a market where Digi has such a strong foot hold?

And as to which manufactures will rule the MI (musical instruments) industry? It looks as if AKAI, Roland, ZOOM, Korg etc. will dominate with under $1k “all in one” mixer/recorder combos.

So…as to whom "Blows" tha' most (or the least)??? It wasn’t that long ago that the very idea of an under $100k workstation was inconceivable and… noisey analog tape machines were busy… STRETCHING HISSY TAPE!!!

Just my .02$

Really interesting movie, wasn't it. They really captured how much of a social misfit Hitler was, and they guy who played him was incredible.

Hey, good thing we don't let any social misfits run this country, eh??!!

Oh come on!!! What is with this cival discussion? We'ere supposed to be mud slinging here, flaming and raising hell!!! , defending our ego's and gear!

Are we just getting old and lazy? BTW, last night was great Nick, your all I heard you were...

Yes, that was a great threesome with you and your granny.

Oops, I wasn't supposed to tell...

I've got three grannys, is that normal?

But seriously... I'm using DP4.12 with Panther 10.3.2 and all my factory patchlists for my midi boxes, reverbs etc. came up flawlessly.
DP even includes a cool thing for adding expansion board names.
The midi editing in DP is very comprehensive and the timing sounds really good.

Does PT do midi this well?

DP+DA7 does audio really well for me.
Is PT significantly better?

Hey Nick, I've got a 2500 also and I love the sound and functionality.

No the audio's not better.
Pro Tools does do a few tasks better. It's loop cutting features are a little easier to manage and it doesn't suffer from the graphics slowdown under load the way DP does.
DP on the other hand offers many more options then PT in terms of how to manage your workflow within the interface.
Significant audio differences are tied to your source, path and ability.
As to stability issues, when properly configured both are very solid. I have a restart issue maybe once or twice a month and do audio work daily.

I only have PT Free (the real one) so my experience is indeed limited, but having said that

1) I love Logic for AudioMidi stuff much much more (yes it's deeper and steeper to learn but it rocks)

2) Samplitude for mastering and editing really does it for me, even if I have to use it on a Pee-Cee :rolleyes:

My 'lil studio is advertised as being "Deprotoolized"... over here people cop an attitude because of their PT rigs, it's just unbelievable (and I am such an anticonformistical reverse-snob)

"JJ"

[P.S. I had read on Guitar Player some years ago that Lenny Crave-its choose an all analog, all-tube console because of that "special vibe"... go figure..]

I was lucky enough to have a few pro-tools sessions at Sony Studios in Sydney a few years back. Stability wasn't one word that came to mind though as I watched the system crash on several occasions. Could it have been a crappy setup? Absolutely, although I have been told that "Macs, they just work you know?". For the most part it worked stable enough though.

I place myself firmly in the semi-professional arena, I have a day job, I do live sound mixing/recording for a local company, I do some tracking of local bands and some post production. With the crappy Australian Dollar (at the time), and the fact I wasn't full-time, there was no way I could justify the cost of a pro-tools rig so I plonked a quite substantial sum of money on a Creamware SFP system instead along with Nuendo (SFP does not incorporate a sequencer like pro-tools).

Is it stable? Not for everybody but for me, absolutely! The product still needs to mature but I have not had any crashes/lockups/problems during tracking/production sessions. But I am a technical/computer capable type person, thanks to the day job and past hobbies, so I don't have much trouble with that sought of thing and don't mind putting the effort in. I'm sure it's the same with Pro-tools. If a system has been professionally setup, you would expect it to be stable.

Oh, and because this thread is too civil, Mr H Zimmer (of Lion King, and Gladiator, Black Hawk Down etc fame, apologies for the name drop) said in an interview when he wanted to do "sonically excellent" stuff he would use the SFP mixers instead of mixing in his pro-tools rig. Bwahahahahahaha....(ok, so it's one guy with an opinion like everybody else so what!)

For info, the Creamware SFP systems have only been out for around 5 years and are based on Analog Devices SHARC DSP's, the same one's used in the new SSL Dig consoles, Euphonix Broadcast consoles and Fairlight DREAM systems. Of course it's all in the programming and the Fairlight DREAM systems actually use Creamware cards and algorythms as well.

FYI...

http://www.digitalprosound.com/Htm/HomeSet1.htm

Digidesign, will receive an Academy Award of Merit (Oscar statuette) from the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences for the design, development, and implementation of the Pro Tools digital audio workstation, which is renowned as the standard for creating and editing motion picture soundtracks.

Where's Mark Kluth?

Was Lord of the Rings done on PT's? I hear it was mixed on tandem DA7's and a few adats.

Well, thanks for asking, Nick. I sold my studio - all the gear, masters, website, clients... everything. I no longer own a DA7, but still lurk here. The new owner has set up shop in a commercial space and essentially took over where I left off. We are in the process of selling our house and are retiring while we're still young to Hawaii. I'll make certain to wave down at you as I fly over LA on my way to paradise with my new Nuendo rig in tow.

Wave by all means, but please don't pee.

So I hear you're opening a Pro Tools room in Hawaii! I envy you. :p