I'm currently a Logic user with a project studio. Many of my clients also use lager studios, with most of these studios running Pro Tools. I usually do file transfer via wave files for each recorded track.

(1) Is there any benifits, besides saving time, to running a Pro Tools session for those clients that need to transfer the files?

(2) How many larger studios are now running Logic in addition to Pro Tools?

(3) I can only afford to get a Pro Tools Le setup. How good is the Mbox?

Thanks for all your help.

I'm running Logic and Protools. I started with this setup years ago because it was sonically and performance wise the best game in town. That is no longer true. Proptools' latency and overall "stability", (DSP and TDM plug-ins) is the best but for the inflated $$$, it ain't floating my boat.
If your clients want Protools you may have to cave and go that route as I've had to but I'm also running an RME hammerfall card along side the Protools stuff for more i/o and it's bullet proof and sounds just as good. Mind you, I'm running an old 24 bit Protools system and have not yet compared it to the HD system but I'm not lining up to pay 18 large for the privilege.
As for the Le system and Mbox, I dunno, buut I think it looks pretty skimpy.

Thanks for your help. I think I might go for the 002 Le system.

I bought 002 just for the ability to interface with others when the need arises. That plus... sheesh, I can't believe some of the phone calls. "Dude.... you got Pro Tools?" 'Course, most that ask about it don't have a clue as to what it is. They only site PT because someone's filled their head with "sugar plumbs."
Brent

LOL...I get the same calls. These are the same guys that made all their tracks on their Play Station:)

Protools is a blessing and curse. The curse is expensive. The blessing is it works beautifully and is much easier to learn (in my opinion) than the PC counterparts. I strongly recommend if you do Protools you do it on a Macintosh. Others have had good success with the "light" Protools hardware which will run you $700-$2500 range not including computer. I recommend you spend the $15K or so and get a Protools HD|2 setup. For that money you can afford a decent Mac and monitor, a hardware interface (96 I/O maybe - 8 adat I/O, 8 analog TRS I/O) - you can also get some kick ass plugins. Protools TDM plugin architecture means you're reverb etc. instances are handled on the Protools hardware not on your Mac's CPU which means real time effects with near zero latency when monitoring - a huge plus.

You'll also be compatible with the pro's out there. A lot of people in this group will shun Protools because of the price but no one denies it is the industry standard. Get Protools: be happy: make more money with your clients.

I recommend the following online video which demonstrates loop editing in Protools and will give you an idea.

http://www.mtsu.edu/~nadam/downloads/PTlab3web.html

Requires Quicktime which you can get free from http://www.apple.com

Cheers!

The questions: is it really going to make a difference to your clientele? Can you spend that money (or 1/4 of it?!!) on other things that will improve your setup and attract new biz? I'm a working pro without it (used to have it years ago) and haven't found it to be a problem to be compatible for projects i do. That being said, if my steady work was still sound or music editing for film, pro tools would still be my platform - it's not and it's not.

I have to take exception with that last comment on 2 levels. One is I really do believe Protools TDM is a significant step up in quality and raw recording power from a system costing 75% less.

On another level, I have come to think of Protools as a workhorse because it is so reliable and editing is fast. I've seen dozens of people edit and mix with Protools. If you can, find a Protools Pro and ask if you can watch what they do for 15 minutes. You'll see the light.

Justin, that could be said for any platform! Sit down and watch any working pro on DP, Logic, Nuendo, etc. - these are all pro systems with strengths and weaknesses just like pro tools. Is pro tools 75% better (faster, better sounding, more features, more stable) than any of these three daw's? Absolutely not! Is it even 25% better? Having direct experience with pt, logic and dp, the answer is no in my world.

Yes!!! DIGI 002 RACK is the way to go if you DON'T have 15 Stacks (GRAND), which you may or may not have. How much work are you doing? That's another consideration. I use DIGI 002 charging HIPHOP rappers 35HR. It will be paid for in 6 months. They don't know the difference between TDM and RTAS (LE). And of course if they want, you burn a DVD or CD with the files and have them take it to a TDM guy charging 75-125HR.

KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK, WHO is it!!!!!, It's the client you sent to the 75-125hr studio...We decided to do the WHOLE CD here!!!
Cool!!!!

That's an actual client for me, and MORE than once. But there were some who went to bigger studios ie Larry Gold (TSOP Producer and Engineer), or Angel Mountain. Never the less I got the recording business, now they can have the mixing part. I also transfer files using OMF Tool at one time. But since I've moved to OSX, I'm not sure of the next step for tracnsferring data from DP and Logic so easily.

Don't forget also that ProTools in any format is DIGITAL and has a bit of sterility to it. I try to use tube in AND tube out before burning to CD. I also have a few interfaces to bring at least 18 tracks OUT of the box for processing using outboard gear. If you're staying in the computer with LE, then you need plugs. Plugs will kill your CPU so you get smart and use BUSSES to multitrack plugs to mono or stereo channels together.

Well I'm done and I LOVE my DIGI002 Rack. In the lab or Mobile....It's all good.
Check out marajientertainment.com, then go to RocDaHouse Studio after you're done.

RaJ.................Out........................1

Michael - I've played with all of these. In the context of "different strokes for different folks" I'd say you are correct - use the tool that works for you. In terms of what is a professional product - I disagree - Protools far exceeds these programs. One reason is the key to Protools -- the TDM hardware. Logic is the only program you mention that can use Digidesign hardware - but if you're going to buy the TDM hardware, you might as well use the Protools software like the rest of the industry. Who knows where Logic will go now that Apple has purchased it - maybe it will compete with Protools on a higher level but more likely it will be blended in with their consumer marketing. In sum,
I consider Logic, Cubase, Nuendo, Sonar and others to be very much pro-sumer products geared mostly at hobbiests - not that there is anything wrong with that. But if you want to truly use what the pros use - Protools is it.

Also, Windows Operating System (all flavors) is great for lots of things - audio is not one of them. I can list lots of reasons why but I'll give you one to chew on... viruses. Mac OS 9 has none. Mac OS X I think they just discovered one. Mac OS X has great potential for audio applications but much is still in transition. The first iterations of OS X really were poor. So far so good with Panther however.

Raj -

No offense but your pictures reflect a lot of clutter. They are also squeezed and distorted. I'm sure your intentions are good. But as we've discussed before - you're missing a whole world of great recording capability using Protools 002 - you've got enough Mics and Pres - bite the bullet and grab a G5 with Protools HD Accel 2. You'll be in heaven, I guarantee it.

Justin, respectfully, LOTS of pros use DP and Logic and we're not just "playing with it". Saying that top film and commercial composers are using hobbyist level software is pretty silly.
Yes, it is a matter of choice/taste/style, what kind of work you do, and an economic question.

If you really must have that logo somewhere, (where IS that Izod shirt you used to have?!) Raj is proof the cheaper versions (which are FAR inferior to a Logic or DP system) will suffice. I use the free version occasionally to edit film sound projects that are finished in that format, because it's the tool i learned how to do that work on and it serves me.

I wonder what WWW IIII's response is to my question about how spending 4-5 grand on other things for his studio might affect his business...

I'm a proponent of Pro Tools, and I have to disagree with that, Justin. Nuendo is a $1500 native DAW, and it's supposed to be very good on PC (the Mac version I have is early - I never kept up with the updates, so I can't say much about it).

But the other three are all *composition* programs vs. a production program. Pro Tools is not for composition if you use MIDI in an advanced way. As a matter of fact, they make Pro Tools look like a prosumer program in that regard!

I use Pro Tools for mixing and editing, but I use Logic for composing. (I used to use DP as well, but I'm too EXS24ed out to use it now.)

And I'm in the middle of a "whether to upgrade to HD" quandary. Chances are that I'll just keep my MIX system (which will never work on a G5) when I move to a G5. The upgrade is expensive, and the only reason I'd do it is to keep up with the updates. I don't need 192 or better converters.

Tough decision.

I'll answer WWIII next post.

1. The latest Logic 6.4.2 is supposed to have better OMF file exporting. I haven't tried that, but it may make it easier to import sessions into Pro Tools.

2. A better question is whether you have clients who use Logic or other digital audio sequencers. If so, you probably want Logic, DP, and probably Cubase and Sonar for compatibilty.

3. The Mbox is their entry-level hardware, but it uses the same Pro Tools LE software the 002 uses. How good it is depends on what you're doing. If you only have Pro Tools for compatibility, it's more than fine - as long as you don't need more than 32 tracks. You'll find that the 002 sounds better and has more features, but you may not need that.

Justin, there's also Sequoia as competition to Pro Tools - to name one. These programs all have their strengths.

My point is that other DAWs are not tinkertoys just because they're not Pro Tools. I personally have a few years invested in its interface and really like it - which is why I mix in it instead of Logic - but it's not the only game in town anymore.

A good friend of mine is a top music editor/supervisor, and they've recorded and edited more than one major orchestral score in Digital Performer. He uses Pro Tools as well, but you get the point: you're not a sissy just because you don't have Pro Tools!

I use Pro Tools often and I do regularly use other software, Nuendo, Vegas, Saw Pro, Cool Edit, and others. I can say that Pro Tools is definitely the standard. However, there are many things about those other platforms I really like that I wish Pro Tools had. For instance, Vegas has a nice trimmer window function that operates on the parent wave file to the region in the track with great zoom resolution and capability to add, edit, view, markers.

One thing Pro Tools really sucks at is metering. Unless I am doing something wrong, I keep running into situations with 16 and 24 bit mixes where I easily overload the master buss or aux busses. Pro Tools' meters lie. They tell you that everyting is OK and is not overloading, when you actually are. When I bounce the file, I see that peaks have been clipped. If anyone has a solution to this I'd like to hear it. That, right there is a problem that I have not had with any of the other programs so I can say that while I really like working with many aspects of Pro Tools, it sure can be damn frustrating at times.

Greg

According to Digidesign, it's not possible to overload the busses. It might be plug-ins that are doing it.

The solution to their meters is to use SpectraFoo's meters. I often stretch that thing across a whole monitor when I'm mastering.

J...How can you get a Virus if you're not connected to the Net? Besides, Flu season is about over. BTW, I have a Bud in Toronto who is a Logic Wizard. He is constantly sending audio files created with Logic to colleagues that time stamp perfectly and the music I hear with his Logic sounds pretty good to me. He does use some pretty high end convertors(DB Gold). The old addage is the path to the Digital Recorder is only as good as the elements in the path: The mic,pre,limiter-A to D convertors. If you're hip enough to use as much high end tubessence as possible on the A side, your s..t should sound fantastic. I, for one am still using Cubase only as a sequencer. I record to the MX with a groovy chain topped off with a Pacific Microsonics ADDA.
After I finish my current project I am going to think strongly about the Plug In World which I have never entered but as of late have heard some great stuff. FWIW.

Hilarious!

Hans Zimmer uses Logic exclusively...damn hobbiest.

There is no way I can justify spending 15K on a Pro Tools system. Reason being, I don't see it making a $15K difference. A hit record is a hit record. Most listeners can't tell you or even care what it was recorded on. We have all heard music that was recorded on ADAT and other tape that blew us away.

Thank you for all your comments. I see that it is a real subjective matter. I may still get a Pro Tools Le set up just to be prepared for anything that may come my way.

I think my point has been missed here. Most other programs use a computer's CPU. Protools does also in part but a TDM system has large PCI cards that pack a lot of DSP power. This is a core reason it's so popular among pros. I hear Nuendo is popular in Europe. Common guys, in terms of people who make a living doing audio on DAWs Protools is hands down the winner. Nick you know what I'm talking about now. Don't believe me... ok whip out a yellow pages and call the top 5 recording studios in your closest city. See what they use. Hans Zimmer? I'm sure he uses them all. At the end of the day, someone drops it into Protools.

Justin. Your starting to sound brainwashed by Avid 's bombardment of mis information. Any of the workstations you call prosumer are every bit as pro as blow tools @ 1/20th the cost. Your statement is ludicrous. :rolleyes:

There's no denying the fact that every post production facility is using Protools. If you've spent a million dollars constructing a comercial studio and then another million or so putting an SSL or Neve console with all the finest outboard gear available in this studio you're not even going to think twice about getting the baddest Protools rig known to man but the truth is that 98.67% of us don't need it. A Nuendo system running on a computer with a sh*tload of horse power and a UAD-1 card can give Protools a serious "Roger-ing".
I took the plunge years ago and bought a Mix Plus Protools system that has served me well. It is the best thing out there but it's over priced and that ****es me off.
Spend the dough on killer pres and A/D converters and you'll kill the best HD rig out there.

The answer is NO! Yes, I know I'm very opinionated, but...don't get Pro Tools LE. I have a few friends that went that route. One regrets it terribly after seeing what I do with DP. The other has gone and ditched PT LE for DP for similar reasons and has actually had an easier time getting going and at least feels that the sound he's getting is better now...he had the 001 and now has another box with better AD's than the 001.. I tried working with a friend on his LE digi 002 and it seemed like a joke to me. I know that PT non LE is a powerful thing but I still think DP has some very strong points above PT aside from the advantage of PT having zero latency and Beat Det. etc... I believe if you're gonna get PT then get PT..not that LE piece of crap: to use it you MUST have the hardware with you at all times...what a pain if you have a laptop and like to work when traveling; also, it costs too much compared to other systems that do way more, way better...like DP for example...I find it very "controlling" of Digidesign to require their hardware for their software to function! I have had clients that mention PT but have no idea what they are talking about. I tell them that I do use a DAW...MOTU's DP and it does everything that PT does. and if we need Beat Det. then I go to my friends place and for $50/song we're in business... either get the real PT or get something like DP...but I think you said you use Logic...that should be great...be happy and tell your clients that ask for PT that Logic is just another make of the same basic thing...they'll get it and just move on a make music. --the M-box...is NOT PRO GEAR!

I read more of the above replies and was astounded to hear a lot of "PT is the only pro daw and that the others are pro-sumer'". That is blatant non-fact. I won't even bother to take the time to present any arguments to support my point. Reality has done that for me. Just look around: Rufus Wainwright's last two records were done with lots of use of LOGIC, Pat Metheny uses DP... ---Man, it's REALLY late. I'm tired...good night to all.

Yes you need Protools

Logic, Nuendo, Cubase, Sonar, Protools 001 002 LE = Pro-sumer - fine if you just want to fool around

Protools TDM (Mix+, HD or HD Accel - when you want to get serious.

nuff said

Paul you find the fact that Protools uses proprietary hardware to use their software controlling? You know why they do that? Because a computer's CPU (Mac and PC) can only handle so much processing. When the audio processing is offloaded onto a card it adds extra muscle. Makes sense doesn't it. As processors get more and more powerful and we get things like a Dual Processor G5 - then it's possible non-hardware additive DAWS will come to light. Not at present though.

If I was gonna dip into Pro-sumer DAWs my first choice would be Digital Performer on a Mac G5. Still I'd only do it if I was really strapped for cash.

Vinco - not brainwashed. Check out Protools in action sometime, until you know what it can do, you don't know what you're missing.

I started with the 2 track version of PT, then 4 tk, then 8 tk with 888's and AD8000s, I'm happy with DP, I don't need anything else.

Avid drew first blood and the industry stayed with it, for a while, it is not that way now and its market share will continue to decrease as 'better' platforms appear. Why waste the money on an overpriced piece of gear that has seen better days? HD fixed some of the symptoms (bad summing) and has better resoulition, so what, it is still a rip off. Go there if you want to be where the industry was.

When a potential client asks me if I have PT, I say "hell no! I use better sounding stuff", they ask, "isn't Protools the industry standard?", I say "it used to be" and I have a new client...

Raj, you must have a day gig, cause $35. an hour is not enough to support a studioo out here. Whats up with that?

Kelly, the last SSL rooms I saw being built were more like 40 million than 2. It is expensive to have all the bells and whistels these days. PT is one you don't need now and will need less in the future. Put that 20 grand into a Telefunken 270 W/ the AC701 tubes and call it good.

Justin, I know what PT can do and I don't miss it at all. All of the platforms are prosumer and none can come close to the depth or meat of analog, just as the transition from tube to FET gave us more tracks but left us with lower fidelity, digital gave us better S/N and less realizem. The only reasons I have digital gear is for the size facter and I don't wear out the tapes any more, everything else is crap.

.

Pat - I think you should explain you do all your recording on a laptop - a great idea for being portable. But surely there are limitations given the processing power of the laptop - track count etc. It'd be great if you describe you equipment in more detail - maybe tell us how you recorded your last session.

Zumbido - which DAW program do you use more frequently for recording? which version of Prtools do you use?

Justin,

I did last week or so in the topic "MY set up".

My lap top can handle like 30 tracks with at least that many plugs - of course it gets a little slugish, but it works.

These are just tools, were to hung up on how much it cost and not what it can do. Protools had the market and 'luckly' came out with HD in time to snare a few more, but thats over.

I'm taking my cues from my mastering guys and they are all going to Secquoia and pc based systems. Who cares what some of the big studios are doing, or did. How many are still in OS9? A lot from my observations.

I don't care what the platform is if it makes music. And thats really the inportant thing here, but to say that there is only one way kinda puts one behind the evolving future. I want to be where it is going, not where it was.

Justin, your setup is great, I can make music with it. Your last CD sounded great on older gear ( and a DA7 ;-)). It is what you did with the gear way more than what the gear was and that is really all my point is - and that PT is way over priced. I'm also glad you love what you have now to record on, thats a good thing.

I got to play witha pro-tolls righ when I did a recording gig for some folks at streeterville studio in Chicago a couple years ago.
It was a mix/24 system I think.

I remember the plugins being real nice, but it didnt impress me enough to rush out and sell my PC, dump samplitude and buy a pro-tools rig.

It didnt crash on me, but then neither does samplitude.
The hardware was solid, but then so is my RME HDSP card and my DA7.

I didnt see anything about Pro-Tools that justified the cost difference between it and a native system.
I know, I know .. the PT systems have thier dsp cards but really.. with the cpus as fast as they are now I cant remember the last time I added enough plugins to bog my system down.
But then I just record rock bands, not orchestras.
And I realize that every violin and cello in an orchestra needs to be compressed and have it's own 4 band para-eq and reverb on it.

In my opinion, if you want to belong to the "I own a pro-tools rig" club.. then buy a pro-tools rig.
But if you can get just as good of results with a "pro-sumer" rig then get the pro-sumer rig and spend the extra money on more mics, or your childrens college fund.

The software and hardware are just tools after all.

FWIW I have A pro tools HD2 rig and a seperate DP rig with TC and UAD cards.

The pro tools rig was given to me by a commercial client (to be platform compatible with thier files for the work they outsource to me) so I have zero invested in the system. I'm not sure how that colors my opinion.

I prefer the DP set up and only use the Protools set up when forced to by outside pressure. For the work I do (primarily editing, mixing and overdubs on projects tracked elsewhere) I find DP to be a much more flexible system and sonically at least the equal of pro tools.

Then again I'm thinking of dumping all my gear, cutting the soles off my shoes and sitting in a treehouse till I learn to play the lute...................

Justin, I of all people certainly haven't missed your point that add-on DSP + native is always going to be more powerful than just native, and of course Pro Tools is a standard. But you're wrong to believe that many other tools on the market aren't equally good in different contexts.

It's no longer as simple a choice as you're making it, and I say that as a big fan of Pro Tools. Three years ago, yes. Not today. I'm sure even the people at Digidesign would agree.

It really depends on what you're doing. Pro Tools is a multitrack production program, as I said. But what if you're doing MIDI + overdubs production? In that case you're using dozens of VIs and don't need lots of plug-ins. Or what if you do and are happy dealing with the latency you get with a TC Powercore or UA card?

And TDM has low latency if you're recording, but its latency with VIs isn't as low as a MOTU or RME card! So even the hardware isn't always the best for everything.

By the way, Hans Zimmer said in an interview that he wishes Ableton Live were the dubbing format for film music instead of Pro Tools! I understand that completely. But Hans Zimmer is only one person. Lots of top people use other DAWs for all kinds of production.

Similarly, Paul, telling someone not to by Pro Tools LE because of what you can do with DP is missing the point. DP is a different program.

.

Ahhh, Man, what is that from? And isn't it a flute? arrrrgggh it's gonna drive me nuts all day!

Well, yes I have a day job, Train Operator making about 47-50K a year. But even if I didn't have a day job, I would make MORE dough at 35-50 an HR than charging people some crazy number they can't afford. Not only THAT!!!, If you charge 125HR, you BEST BETTER have a FAT mix with NO excuses AND be ready for "It just doesn't sound the way it should, can we redo that this and the other, do I have to pay for this and that?" I don't do HIGH POWER clientel because it's not in my interest and time.

Let me tell you something that you take for granted. By the time you finish reading this, you've used 10 minutes of time you will NEVER get back. So the question is (unless you're gonna live forever, HERE), was it worth your time?
Well, to my clients, it's worth it to spend that time and money with me, STRESS FREE. They get in and out with a project they love and have enough cash to COME BACK for more. You may not see that 125 client for another week or two.

Now back to PROTOOLS, I would LOVE to use DP, but my opinion it's apples and oranges in a way. I use digital to get into PROTOOLS bypassing the DIGI002 micpres and analog path all together. I would do thew same with DP, or Logic...they both use DIGI002. my path is either MICPRES (with or without comp), to ISA220 digital out into PT, OR the same A-D into WZAD96, ADAT into ProTools.

Kelly's my baby, cause she KNOWS, it's in the outboard gear, NOT some computer configured number crunchin PLUGIF!! Once again, no matter what interface you use, bring as much OUT of the DAW that you can and process with the REAL GEAR, leave the other tracks in. Use the busses to process multiple tracks with the plugs and you with NEVER go wrong. J, HOW MANY PLUGS DO YOU NEED!!!!!????

ALSO, I leave midi sequenced tracks MIDI!! I use an AKAI MPC-2000XL. Protools start the MPC. BOOM BAM!! I don't record those into the DAW, saving tracks and processing those tracks OUTSIDE of the box.....all for 35 an hour for HIPHOP, 50HR for everything other music. Most HIPHOP and R&B come into the studio with the 2 TRACK MIXED down already. All I have to do is record vocals..that's the way it's done right now........35HR...............YEH!!!!

RaJ.....................Out...................1

Thanks Nick, that's the other point I wanted to make. Whether you use PT or DP, the DIGI002 would be an effective way to get audio in and out.
I don't think it the BEST..RME hardware or Apogee is the way I would go. But the WZAD96 or a pre as I'm using, Focusrite ISA220 with A-D takes care of the tracking and recording with quality.

RaJ.................Out.......................lute

Living in Southern California and haveing to swap sessions with a lot of other studios around from the big L.A./Hollywood to the small home studios, I rarly get asked for anything but Protools. I'm recording/mixing an album now that we will take to Sound Castle in Hollywood and pull up on there protools rig run through there SSL J9000 with tons of outboard goods, and then run back to protools sterio 24-96 so that I can master it. This artist www.tyronewells.com wone an Orange County Music award on the last album we did and one of the songs was on WB's One Tree Hill and he just wone UCLA's 'spring sing' which is an old tradition that bands like Maroon 5 and many others have also one. I have a Mac G4 dual 1.42, a digi002, all the waves plugins and a few others, and Record to Tascams DA98's with a da7 to monitor back. I'm chargn' about 35 an hour like the produca and my phone rings DAILY with people wanting to book time. Its all how you handle the biz but my two cents it Protools is it!
sam

Ya know, for once this thread as been really civilized and not become a Protools flamefest (thanks Jeremy for not posting - just kidding).

While it's true I have a strong biased in favor of Protools I totally respect and have high regard for the innovative solutions each one of you has come up with. I agree with Pat's comment -it's not the tools but how you use them. Garbage in, Garbage out definately applies. I also agree that great mics, mic pres, AD conversion and monitoring acoustics play a big role.

We live in a thrilling time for computers and recording. You just know the best is yet to come. Features added to software, power added to processors, bigger/faster memory and storage, and high speed internet are still vast, open frontiers.

Look at what computers do in other industries. They help doctors be more accurate. They have revolutionized the commercial printing business. I think of a computer as giving me the ability to analyze sound using precision instead of relying 100% on what my ears tell me. I think we'd all agree this makes the process easier and more fun. We can all dive into our labs and make great sounding music. All we need is the will to do it.

K, off my soapbox. Everyone, go record.

If you live in the Los Angeles area and are doing lots of work for Film as well as righteous
Record Dates including editing and swapping your crap around town it might be real smart to get yourself ProTools. If not that at least have a system like Nuendo or any other that you can easily swap your format with the ProTools format.IE a removable drive system that you can ferry anywhere. Other than that..who cares what the F you use.

Justin, Actually I was refering to PT LE having to have the hardware to use the software...that is rediculous. I know that PT by it's very design must have the PCI hardware. BUT WHY must it ALSO have the audio I/O hardware? They could definitely work around that, BUT they choose not to, because then someone could use the hardware with the core cards without the Audio interface...they want control. For example, I'd like to get an old TDM system for Beat Detective purposes, etc. All I would do is fly the drum tracks into PT and do the BD work. So why could I not just have the PCI cards and the software to do that? I never want to go IN and OUT. It is a part of the design that you must have their I/O box(es). Or what if I use PT and then want to do some editing while on the plane or traveling on a laptop. Then you are out of luck, you must turn to a non-Digidesign DAW! Also, How many reports have you heard about the questionable sonics that PT can sometimes produce...Most pro engineers will not mix in PT or at least find ways to avoid bouncing and/or using the summing bus. In Oklahoma City, where I live, an acquaintance of mine put in a full-blown studio at his home..."Upstairs Productions"...it was on the cover of MIX mag. a few months ago. He has the latest RADAR system, a Neve 9098 console...highend everything and lots of it...great monitors and a all his rooms are "designed". I know his control room gives an accurate picture of what things sound like. He has gone 'round and 'round with Digidesign about the negative sound issues of PT...he has the latest PT HD system. When he records to Radar and then transfers the tracks via ethernet (I believe) into PT he notices a collapse in both depth and soundstage and a robbing of the bottom end, etc. Others have noticed this too and Digidesign refuses to answer for this problem. Hmmm... So, he avoids the transfer altogether if at all possible. I do agree that PT has some huge advantages like no latency, very fast responsiveness, things like Beat Detctive, sound-replacer, etc, that a record-enabled track will actually record audio before a punch-in just in case you were late on that punch...very cool and great features that the others don't have, BUT that doesn't make the others non-pro. There are many things that DP can do that PT can't, as well.

people use what they're comfortable with. pt is not the only game in town, (i live in la) and the rationalizations for spending that kind of $$ on that system are getting weaker and weaker. omf works for the track transfers - no the plugs don't come with to a different system, that's uneccesary for editing or tracking.
let's see, a dp system and 3 weeks in Hawaii or pt? i can hear the eukeleli's now!! wait - i can even RECORD them on my powerbook with dp!!!
mahalo!

Nick/Kelly:

I am a Logic user (who has been quite happy) and I am wondering if you started on Pro Tools first, then added Logic or vice versa. Did you ever consider doing 100% of your work in Logic?

Thanks

Kelly,
It's from Firesign Theatre. Remember?
Porgy tire biter,
He's a spy and a girl delighter.
Porgy fire fighter,
just a student like you.
(Like me??!!! )
Just a student like you.......

Coming mother.
Heh Heh That boy of mine.
He's not your son Fred.
Stop torturing me Ethel.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

and things were going so well with this thread. oh well...

A brief history or ME (my favorite subject):

I started on a Yamaha QX-21 hardware sequencer, then a QX-5, then an Atari ST running Passport Mastertracks Pro, then very soon afterwards MTP running on a Mac Plus. My tape recorder was a Teac 3340S, of course, and I synced the sequencer to that. Actually, at first I used human sync - pushing Start and hoping it would lock, which it did. Slowly, I moved from MTP into Logic, Performer, and Vision, and around 1989 I upgraded to a Tascam TSR-8.

It wasn't until about 1993 that I ended up buying the PT III NuBus system that Digidesign sent in to Recording magazine for review. It simply wasn't going back; that was my first digital audio system.

Logic's mixing features only became real a couple of years ago, and I've been using Pro Tools for a long time.

So the answer to your question is that I could mix in Logic, but I like mixing in Pro Tools since that's what I'm used to doing. I was using Logic before Pro Tools, but only for MIDI; I was using Pro Tools before Logic, but only for audio.

When there isn't time to bring everything into Pro Tools - which doesn't happen very often - I mix in Logic. And I use Pro Tools for heavy editing, for example I'm cutting up some samples right now, and I wouldn't want to do that in Logic.

Well... I think we're ALL Bozos on this bus.

*That's* showing your age!

Justin. Things were going well with your thread? How Leslie like of you take a stance and make an assinine statement like you did with your pro sumer brain fart daw comparison and then tell us to get off your soap box. There are thousands of artists producing better sounding projects with Nuendo, DP, Logic etc than you could ever realize in 20 lifetimes with your superior blow tools rig. The funny thing is for the money there better sounding alternatives. Most in the know would take Sonic solutions,Sadie, Genex, and others in the 20 to 30 k price range over any blow tools rig. So admit you have been brainwashed and we'll all jump off the soap box. This crap is getting as tired as the Mac vs. pc debates. :rolleyes:

.

You mean the L.A. Fakers. Garnett has a bigger heart than LA's whole team. Too bad they cant surround him with the best team money can buy like Dr. Buss.

I think Leslie came back as Zumbido.

Justin I also agree with Nick that the other software solutions available are equally as viable as Pro Tools. Digi has to keep up with their competition.

I do use Pro Tools at work. But not at home. I totally avoid mixing inside the computer because of all my bad experiences with PT. Instead, I use my multitrack software (not Pro Tools) as a tape deck. The RME Hammerfall card's outputs sound just as nice as Pro Tools, it performs well and reliably, and I never have an issue with it. The DA7's summing buss is more workable for me, it is easy to see what's going on and I like how the result sounds. Best of all - NO DSP CARD NECESSARY. All my processing can be done natively or with the DA7.

Nick - It is mentioned in the Pro Tools 24 Mix Plus manual how it is possible to overload the buss in 16 bit mode without seeing it on the meters, and how that has been corrected in the 24 bit version (which I have not confirmed, actually to the opposite). However, it is possible that it is the plug ins. I will check into that.

Regardless, the PT mix buss issue is really moot if you use the DA7 for one of the things it does best - mixing digital audio.

Greg

Interesting, Greg, I didn't read that. But as I said, Digidesign gave a seminar at the last AES show in NY, explaining a bunch of Pro Tools myths. That was on of them, and while I don't remember the exact details, it was pretty convincing...and yet moot at the same time, since you can run out of headroom with plug-ins!

(I've never used the DA7 for mixing, by the way - it just sits there routing stuff.)

PTs lacks depth and transparency in its sound. Some can't hear or appreciate that fact. I can say even me and Long argee on this. As well as many others. If that's not a concern, then join the leauge of digi follwers, like those who eat at Mc Donnalds, because it's around more than others.

Personaly I much favor the sonic quality of Nuendo head over heals than PT. DP is a close second, and I use DP. The GUI in DP is much nicer than PTs. Editing just as f-ing good.

No, you don't need PTs, unless your as brain washed and can't hear the sonic differences as the reat of the them out there.

I'm not stateing this because I use something other than, but because of what i've heard. Not just me, but M A N Y others.

A couple of points:

1) When thinking about the Pro Tools decision, you should be thinking about what the intended end use is.

Do you need Pro Tools because you need to have compatibility with other studios? Because your clients demand it? If the answer to either of those questions is a REAL "yes," well then, your decision has been made for you.

If the answer is NOT a firm yes, you should consider other options.

2) When considering options, you need to be realistic about what Pro Tools offers that others don't and vice-versa.

*Pro tools is NOT the easiest DAW application to edit audio on. Not by a long shot. Nor is it the most powerful. A simple inspection of the available functions and how they are implemented in a few popular DAW programs will show you that.

*Pro Tools is DEFINETELY not the easiest to sequence MIDI on. MIDI implementation is essentially an afterthought to DigiDesign/Avid.

*Pro Tools is NOT the ony DAW out there that uses or can use DSP cards/effects. And even if it were, the native power you have available in a decent modern box pretty much dwarfs all the DSP that the original Pro Tools system built its hallowed reputation on. So, where is Pro Tools' proprietary, closed-ended DSP really going?

*Even with the DSP and the fact that it is an industry "standard," Pro Tools seems overpriced (to me, at least) for what you get. It's a virtual monopoly and DigiDesign/Avid is clearly milking it for all it's worth.

*Nonetheless, Pro Tools is a standard that has not yet been unseated. Being "Pro Tools literate" as an engineer and Pro tools compliant as a studio can only help you.

So, you really end up asking yourself a) Do I NEED to have Pro Tools to keep my business going? and if not, b) is it worth the cost to have Pro Tools just to be "one of the boys?"

That's totally subjective, of course. What are you editing? How are you editing it?

We've said that many times in this thread, but calling it an afterthought is...well, it's true, but it's a negative way of saying that they originally conceived of the program as an audio editor with MIDI playback, then added some MIDI features to it.

There are rumors that it's going to get real MIDI features next revision, which will be interesting to see. I think that making it work well with advanced libraries is going to take a whole new fundamental approach to the program, but we'll see.

It built its reputation when computers were nowehere near powerful enough to do what it did. A whole new cottage industry blossomed: plug-ins.

And at that time there were essentially no alternatives on the Mac other than high-end mastering programs (Sonic, Sadie), and there were no alternatives period on the PC.

But of course add-on DSP isn't going to be necessary forever. They know that too.

Hey Justin,

Just saw this thread - couldn't get on early because I was slammed in the studio all week with Take 6 (the a cappella group). BTW, we tracked on RADAR, OD'ed at their place on Logic, edited at my studio on DP and bounced back to RADAR for mixing. Yeah, your right, we ain't pros - if we were, we'd be using Pro Tools, the only way to fly.

Hey Take 6... My dad's a big fan of those guys. Didn't they do commercials for a while too. Anyway I found this quote in Mix from the article 'DAWs and Hybrid Mixing' on page 40. Robert Brock says, 'Logic, DP and Cakewalk all grew up as musicians' tools focusing on the sequencing side, ", "whereas Pro Tools was designed by an for engineers." then later he says, "Pro Tools is a much more intuitive interface,"
This guy admits to using Logic more than Pro Tools so it doesn't seem that he's too biased, but I like how he breaks it down as to its about what these programs were created for.
Also I disagree with Protools being sonicaly inferior to these other programs cause if it was then DP or Logic or the other would be what most of these big studios and the pro's would be using. Being in LA I have tried to get tour's of all the big studios as much as possible, I've seen more Pro Tools rigs than even being close to the second most used program.
my2
sam

Glenn - Why use so many different programs? I guess no one program suites everybody, hmm and what does that say about the programs. I'll admit I'm not at all familar with Radar. One comment I read on their website was "Protools is great, but it cannot compete with Radar for tracking." - Can you expand on this? I mean, I don't find tracking in Protools hard at all, in fact, punching in in Protools is glorious compared to how I used to do it on my Tascam 4 track cassette (with DBX) back in my high school daze.

J.

I don't track into Protools either... I just got used to machines at first DA88's and now i use DA98's. I only have Protools LE/Digi002rack and punching is harder for me on the computer. When your punching hip-hop vocals and the artists says 'I don't like the way I said 'dope' can you just get that one word' The Tascams are way more fluid on punching and I actualy like the sound of there converters when you push good preamps on em. I do need better converters going from the 78's into the computer, any sugestions?
sam

Man, I have 001 PTLE on a G4 and i only use protools cause i like it and it does all i need and that of which my clients ask of me.


Raj, brings up an excellent point, being compatible w/ da big boys. I have an RnB client that tracks at my studio and mixes at a local bigshot studio. He pays me $30 an hour to track and pays $90 plus to mix.
Going from an LE session to HD/TDM is a piece of cake.
Sometimes i have to save a song as 2 sessions, the the eng just imports the tracks into one session. LE has a 32 track limit, that can be worked around.

To the original poster: Does your bidna justify $15,000 on a pt setup, or $600? Only you can answer this.

Hope this helps.


sdf

S.D Whats up with that? My boi told about a way he gets aROUND USING JUST 32 TRACKS ALSO, BUT COULDN'T DEMO IT AT THE TIME. HE SAID SOMETHING LIKE IT WORK SIMILAR TO GHOST TRACKS OR VIRTUAL TRACKS. The difference is he does it within the same session .

He makes additional tracks I think, then copies what he;s done already to those tracks as ghost tracks, that opens up the other 32 for nmore recording. Maybe he copies them and turns them to AUX tracks. HMMMMMMMM, since I'm here, let me try it out.
RaJ............Out...........................1

Sup Raj!!

Dig the new pics BTW...

PTLE allows you to have 5 playlist per track, at least in 5.2.1...

I think what yer boi is doing is using 32 audio tracks, and maybe creates a new playlist for all the audio tracks, which hides the "old" playlist, or old track...and records new ones.....I use this method for recording different takes of a git solo or vocal take.
Or, when tracking a band, we might keep multiple takes of the same song and compare them later.

My RnB dude makes his beats in Acid, bounces down all instruments as its own seperate stereo .wav. All are locked to tempo, i import these into LE, same tempo, and we record vox over them. Before i run out of tracks, i willmake a submix of the beat only, import it back into LE, and line dat ho up!! Otherwise the track will be out of sync w/ itself.

I save one session w/ all the beat and some vox, and the other session w/ ALL the voxes and a stereo beat. So one session has like 12 stereo tracks and rest mono, while the other is all mono cept one stereo track. Homie says it works great and the eng at da BIG studio has no trouble using the "import track from session" function in PT.

I always use the "save session copy in" function and copy all audio and fade files, making sure to clear any unused regions as needed.

rock

sdf

Justin,

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Pro Tools (well... maybe just a little ) but my point is: at this stage in the game, most of the DAW software out there is pro if pro's use it. Yes, Pro-Tools might be the most popular, but that doesn't mean its the best. We use RADAR to track because its bullet-proof, sounds better than ProTools (that I will argue to the end) and acts like an old fashioned tape deck (being the ancient dinosaur that I am). When I am working with clients who like to work fast, RADAR is unbeatable. Of course, no plug ins, no drag and drop editing, etc. makes it necessary for me to have at least one other DAW. They use Logic (which rocks) and I use DP (which I love). We wind up on RADAR to mix because I don't like the sound of mixing inside a computer (something else we can argue about later ) - I like RADAR's D to A's into a Neve or API console. No ****ty Pro Tools summing busses for me.

And, of course, it all starts with a great song....

Hate to break up your Blow Tools circle jerk. Here is just a short list of hack rank amatuers using inferior pro sumer DAW's;

Logic, Herbie Hancock,Lee Ritenour,George Benson, George Duke, Marcus Miller, Micheal Brecker,John Mc Laughlin, Peter Gabriel, Hans Zimmer, Al Di Meola and thousands more.

Nuendo, Alan Parsons, Frank Fillipetti, Phil Ramone, Elliot Scheiner, Chuck Ainley and thousands more.

DP, Pat Metheny, Danny Elfman, Aerosmith, Chick Corea,Jeff Lorber. I could go on all night. Frankly I think Its embarassing that our forum administrator would make such a rediculous statement and then stand by it . You Laid this turd Justin. Now I am going to rub your nose in it. Be man enough to to admit your just plain wrong. But no, you will probably just blow up my post. Like I said . BRAINWASHED.

Well said ma man... But I heard Aero Smith did their Push and Play in PT. That album was a sonic disaster, maybe that's why they are useing DP now.

Vinco - I'm sure they use all the DAWs they can and get lots of endorsement money for saying they do. I don't pay much attention to what the music mags say, just what I know from watching producers/engineers work with Protools

Bottom Line: use whatever you want, then try Protools and learn why it is the industry standard.

As for sound quality between DAWs, as far as I'm concerned the DAW itself has little (or nothing) to do with sound quality (assuming there's no processing on) - Mics, Mic Pres, Digital convertors are where the sound is made. I've heard the stuff about the Protools summing buss and ya know what - it's BS. The Protools summing buss sounds awesome.

Just because people use Pro Tools does not mean they will be successful in their productions. With so many DAW options out there on the market, almost all of them achieve the same thing. Whether you use Pro Tools or not has very very little, if anything to do with the quality or success of the final production.

The quality of the resulting production has to do with the CREATIVITY, VISION, EXPERTISE and MIXING AND PRODUCTION SKILLS of the producer and engineer, not the brand of software they are using.

As far as I am concerned, anyone can create a hit album on Cool Edit Pro just as quickly as they might on Pro Tools. And I know many many people including myself who can be just as quick on other multitrack programs as you can be on Pro Tools, with all kinds of editing - music multitracking, spotting SFX for foley work, radio spots, you name it.

That's what's wrong with the recording industry these days. Marketing has poisioned and infiltrated everyone's purchasing decision. Less people spend time evaluating products to determine what's really the best. Digidesign, Apogee, and many other companies all have ruthless advertising campaigns and software and hardware upgrade programs that are designed to make people spend money.

If you compare Pro Tools side by side against many other editing packages, you will indeed find that the software falls short in many ways. Here are two:
- Handling of stereo regions: Pro Tools did not support stereo regions until post v5.0.1. Many other programs, including Cool Edit, Vegas, Nuendo, etc. did.
- View resolution: Very inconvenient and difficult to do precise down to the sample editing with Pro Tools. Programs like Cool Edit, Vegas, Nuendo, Saw Pro, all have better horizontal and vertical view resolution, more clearly marked, and editing is more precise.

There are many more areas where Pro Tools falls short as software. In addition, screen scrolling on my PT 24 Mix Plus 5.0.1 is slow in comparison to other DAW programs available at the time, and it takes FOREVER to boot up. Sonic Foundry Vegas has many more keyboard shortcuts for view zoom in/out, and editing with the cursor (and they all are identical with Sound Forge 7, which is an excellent 2 track editing program - Digidesign discontinued their 2 track s/w).

I have evaluated the competition and I am sorry but no one will convince me that Pro Tools is the best s/w, hardware, etc. for any reason. However, I can use Pro Tools just as easy as I can anything else.

And, I am sorry to say but I've seen people who are very very very quick on editing platforms other than Pro Tools and the results turned out better than Pro Tools. I've also seen people struggle painfully with Pro Tools' vices. People like Pro Tools because it's easy to use and doesn't require a lot of brain power to learn. It's not necessarily the best or most full featured.

Greg

Good grief, Charlie Brown. There are plenty of people that have done tests beyond the converter differences and now understand that the very "engine" of a DAW can have a "sound" as well as the summing busses, of course. All these different DAW's we've mentioned are pro as soon as you get it in the hands of a pro! ProTools has become the "standand" because they were there when computers were very limited...they got in on the ground floor of the market and thus have the most 3rd party development for their system. It is very accepted that PT has some fundamental flaws in it's design..issues that compromise the audio in certain ways. There are other systems out there that do sound way better...like the sadly forgotten Paris for example. The sound is way more musical and desirable over PT . --poor marketing and business on Ensoniq's part, I guess, or maybe, PT's strong arm in the market...who knows.

Protools isn't jam packed with features. What it does very well and that's record, edit and mix audio. Especially when you are recording a lot of audio at once. It's funny you should mention Cool Edit Pro because I used to think that was a killer program. Then my track count got high and everything starting turning to sh-t! Most of it was due to the bandwidth of the Windows NT operating system which is what I was using at the time. Everyone I talked to at the time (around 2000) said Protools on a Mac. Sure enough that did the trick and we were rocking.

It's nice to think all these other programs are great bargains, but how much of a bargain is it when the program fails? Also I would submit Protools is a whole lot easier to learn and use. Everyone just poo-poo's it because of it's price. Well, I don't like how much a Mercedes costs but I'd admit it's a great car when I drive it. Also, in the years before DAWs existed a 2" multitrack tape machine might have cost a lot more than Protools does today. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. No, not all DAWs are created equal. Some really suck. Protools rocks. Just ask Lenny Kravitz.

But Justin, you bring up a subject that has flame all over it...

Computers help us???? From what I've seen in the last few years is that computers are evil. They eat more time than matenance on an analog machine and always keep us thinking were stupid or doing something wrong. And if the thing needs an upgrade it will shut your studio down for maybe weeks. Yea they are faster when they are setup right, but that changes like the wether and the upgrades.

Raj, I wasn't dis'sn ya at all, just commenting on the pricing - which you added the 50. an hour rate into the pot and leans it to a better profit margin - 15 bucks is a lot per hour and tweeks up the average a lot. $125. is a bit assumptive on your part, I mearlly ment that it seems there is a little more room to get a better product for your clients with a more expensive rate. You can buy better equipment for just a few dollers an hour more. I don't charge $125. an hour but would if I thought I could, and have with complete faith from my clients. I have no problem being responsable for my work and if I screw up it is OK to nfix it on my dime. It is easy to fill up the calinder with recording gigs where I couldn't make my monthly nut, I would rather charge a little more and not work as hard, all the time. It is nice to let others do stuff you don't need or want to do. Charging enough to have the client feel it can and will stimulate them to better, faster more productive sessions. I don't want to record just for my ability to do it, I want to work with pros who can deliver and see the need to get a great product at a fair market price. I'll send clients to $100. an hour voice lessions and expect them to get better and feel fine when I ask for my share, after all they are comming to me for my expertice from the many decades that I have been making records. I feel I am a jopurneyman not an apprentace, and I'm not saying you are, I just saying a little more an hour can help you and instill more fath in your ability. You'll never get the money you lost undercharging a client, even if the client brings in many other potential gigs from word of mouth.

Why would you assume that anyone here who doesn't adore Pro Tools as you do, hasn't actually used the program on a daily basis? I have, and will continue to do so - I don't need to "learn" it. Also, your presumption that all of the people that endorse non-Pro Tools DAW's are paid to sway their opinion is simply not correct. I know and have hired many of the Nuendo endorcers, and this is just not so, Justin.

I would be interested to know if you have ever done a shootout between the various DAW platforms - it has been my experience that there is an appreciable difference (not necessarily better or worse, just different) between the sound of different DAW's using the same sound files and the same hardware.

And, although you might think its BS (and I can't really understand why you are so tweaked about this one particular topic), there is an audible problem with the summing buss on Pro Tools. It is the reason why many professionals (including myself) do not mix inside the box. It is one of the reasons for the design concept behind the new baby SSL.

All that being said, if Pro Tools works for you, great! No one is saying it (or you) suck The presumption that only Pro Tools, however, is the true professional choice is not only misguided, it is just not correct.

Unless, of course, you are kidding about this whole thread

I think WE ALL forgot the original posters ??????

Wether PT would help his studio out.....


alright eve'body line up for the p*ssin match!!

:rolleyes:

rock

sdf

All this bullsh!t kinda makes you want to sell all your gear and move to Hawaii. Debate solved!

The following links might be of interest...

http://www.3daudioinc.com/catalog/produc...5637ed33e2dc6d9


http://www.digidesign.com/digizine/archive/digizine_may04/techtalk/

http://www.tweakheadz.com/review_of_motu_digital_performer.htm

Being in L.A., everyone I work with uses every available platform that's right for the task at hand. But the common thread is that the project usually ends up in PT at some point or another. Does PT sound the best? No. But, it could with the right converters. I'm currently doing a 5.1 mix for a DVD project and PT is the DAW of choice for this task simply because it works. Most of the stuff I get starts in DP or Logic and ends up in PT. What's the point to this reply? Get whatever your clients need you to have so you can deliver the best sounding product in the quickest time possible. Efficiency is the key. If you do this time and time again, you'll always be working.

True, nobody would argue that - it takes great musicians, great songs, great mic pres and a hundred other things to make a successful production. A good DAW like Protools can only help.

False. This cuts to the point of what I'm trying to say here. DAWs like everything else, some are better than others. In my opinion, some do core features like recording and plugins badly. I can't tell you how many times Protools has helped solve problems by using corrective EQ for example.

All true except that last part. A good tool will make help a carpenter do a better job. Same applies here.


I disagree. I know, I've done it. Cool Edit Pro is fine for hobbiests. It's not a professional tool.
Frankly I think this is belly-aching. These companies aren't in business to make your life miserable. They don't sit around thinking "how can we give GregK a hard time." On the contrary, they want your loyalty. The fact is, some people have budgets and some don't. So these companies have to define what market they are going to sell to. In the case of Digidesign, they've made low end versions (001, and 002) that are doing well. I think you spend 6-8x more you get more power with Protools, but this seems quite contested in this forum. I disagree.

You could've found better examples. Protools does handle stereo wavs, sdII or aiffs. It zooms down right to the sample level which is how you can easily do perfect loop editing that doesn't pop.

You know, I like Vegas and SoundForge for what they are. But not for tracking, recording and mixing music - no way. SoundForge is great for working with 2 tracks. I think Vegas is a great program for video editing but needs improvement.


Greg - you've obviously worked with older versions of Protools. Take a look at the HD stuff that's been out since 2002 I think. It really packs a lot of processing power, features and simplicity into it's abilities. When it comes down to it, I want a DAW that

1.) Is reliable and sounds good
2.) Edits fast without a lot of gimmicky features I don't need
3.) Allows me to insert eq, compression and effects without bogging down my computer
4.) Allows me to hear these effects in real time and with low latency(3ms) so I can create a pleasurable headphone mix for the person I'm recording.
5.) Allows for plenty of simultaneos ins/outs when recording.

Frankly, I don't know of another DAW that does all these basic features as well as Protools. :p

Justin, I'm sitting here wondering why you are so rabidly defending Protools, while totally dismissing anybody else's opinion as "unenlightened". What is behind this? Plenty of hit records were made before Protools came on the scene, and plenty are being made today without touching Digi's hardware or software. For you to be so myopic is downright baffling.

I am drawing on my experience with Protools and other DAWs Mark. This isn't a personal thing or a statement about what it takes to make a good record. It's a statement about what makes a good DAW. A lot of people out there hear the word Protools tossed about and love to slam it because it's out of their price range and because they think they can buy a $400 software package to run on their home PC and waalaa, their dream DAW is born. This is simply not the case. I don't work for Digidesign. If their product was garbage you can believe I'd be onto the next great thing.

Pro Tools didn't become popular cause it ever "sounded good". Digidesign did a kick ass job of marketing and we all know how we Americans react to a good advertising campaign.
I have seen more Protools setups in the Film Industry for editing and now mixing Television than ever. As my colleagues and I would always say:"why not use Protools...it's Television and no dick head from Iowa(just an example) will for a moment take out a pen and pencil and rave about the horrible sound job on Angel(another example(mixed on PT)and send a burning letter to the Post House. It just doesn't matter. I personally feel a Record Project deserves the most organic, non-f..ked with process available. Why? Because it is a static fixture. Something that will be frozen for eternity much like a painting. If a product f..ks with the sound in any way via processing, etc...don't use it! Same goes for doing a take till you find it's perfection. Save the flaws for a live performance(if any). Having said this, I don't know why PT became so popular among the Recording purists. Maybe the ability to fix,stretch, edit, etc.Frankly, I don't care. I've never found it necessary to alter the end result of a well planned, produced Record Project. If it's done properly you just do your overdubs and mix and master the f..ker. BTW, even 64bit internal processing messes with the original sound. And worse than this is the result of taking your tracks from one format and moving them all over the place till you're done. Real stupid. That's all I have to say. This thread kind of bothers me. Too bad about Kevin Garnett's heart. By 10PM Pacific time tomorrow night it will be breaking.

Whew for a minute there I thought those marketing fiends at Digidesign had fooled you into thinking they had a decent product Anaconda. I'm so glad you got them figured out. And I'm inclinded to agree, digital recording or so called DAWs just f-ck with the sound too much. In fact, I think analog tape also f-cks with the sound too damn much. All that wow and flutter. These man made devices just aren't organic enough. Which is why I'm working on a recording system made entirely from recycled wood pulp. No electricity involved, it works by foot pump. Now I just need to find a way to market it.

Yeah, I just read this more closely. I agree that Pro Tools not supporting interleaved files is a nuisance (it deinterleaves them, then uses a stereo track, and it can bounce to stereo files). Other programs that were written more recently can open stereo files directly.

However, the view resolution criticism is hard to understand. You can use "memory locations" to jump instantly to whatever resolutions you want (single samples or hours - it doesn't matter), there are five stored horizontal zoom resolutions accessible right on the top of the Edit window, you can click on arrows on to of the window to zoom in either direction, or you can use key commands to zoom in and out horizontally or vertically. There's also a command to fill the screen with the selection.

And you can edit down to the single sample, so I really don't see that the precision would be greater on any DAW.

I do wish there was a key command to change the track sizes, though, so perhaps that's what you mean.

Justin. What's this talk 'bout wow and flutter? I tracked my lastest project at Ocean Way(Studio B-API) in Hollywood on their tweaked Ampex ATR-124.No wow or flutter. This is the purity I mentioned. I then transferred the tracks through DB-Gold AD's to a MX 2424 hard drive. I also did a safety directly to the MX 2424 using it's convertors. I chose the analog transfer. It's about as "organic" as I have heard...The wood sounds like wood.The cymbals sound quite real. I wouldn't think of moving to any other media to edit. Especially Pro Tools. You see, I had to use Pro Tools for 5 years. Now I'm free.Do you have wood Justin...Bet you do with all the stroking with this ProTools thread. I think you need to get out more often. Maybe a long walk in the woods. Breathe deep. **** on a tree. Have some fun. BTW, thanks for keeping this Forum active.

Justin, I didn't use ProTools because of the Digidesign politic!!!
In early 1995 I bought the first Audiomedia III in my country from the PT distributor after it's presentation. They give it with Session Software, something like Session8, but for Audiomedia. They told us that it is only matter of time to give us new soft for the card (for free!!) because this soft was only 8 channels, without plugs, etc (it was 1995:-)) to make stable drivers (the driver for NT was 1.0 till the end of the card!!! and was fulduplex!!!), to make ASIO, and more, and more. Justin, if you have been on Digidesign forums these years, you know that the response from the users was... They were starting the posts with: The f.....ing Digi :-) This situation was 3 YEARS!!!!! Tell me, how a normal person will wait 3 years for support of his card? The card itself is very good, for me it's sound is better than the sound of M-box, but without software support it is nothing. The truth behind this fact is that nobody in the company was interested in the what you say pro-sumer market. They wanted only to sell hi-end systems for lots of money.
But time changed, there are fast computers with native plug-ins, and Digi realized that native software is in more adequate situation. So they started to offer M-box, Digi001, 002, PTLE and so on. Now the drivers are compatible with Audiomedia, I can use with it PTLE, but I can't wait until now, I bought Cubase, RME and DA7. It's not about the money. I think that if a man or a company is not correct to me once, he (or it) can do it again.
And about the money. PT is veeeeery overpriced. Check their pricelist. Check the price of one single Y-cable! What is it? Maybe it is pure gold metal:-)
And about the DSP-cards. IT was very elegant solution when computers were on 75 mHZ, more than this, this was the ONLY solution. But now for me it doesn't matter if the CPU of the computer or the farm card is making the computing, computing is computing in both cases, it is not worst or better, and the sound behind the digits is the same. The mixing engine does matter, of course, but in my opinion, PT is not the only one good alternative for mixing. Sorry for the english:-(

Keyplayer: I think the term you're looking for is Voila. C'est francais, n'est pas?

Justin. Re read Anaconda's last post 20 times. Maybe it will serve as some sort of intervention for your brainwashing. And by all means take a long walk in the woods. Your dangerously close to the Nike Headquarters and your first pair of black Nike's. Next thing you know you and about 40 other brainwashed blow tools numb nuts will be taking off for a comet. The next one is called Avid bop.

Man, I've been trying to stay out of this rant for a while, but someone said something that I should've stated days ago...

Digi's support? If you can call it that, it only exists for the highend users. I owned an AMIII also. I am not a Digi outsider - I sold the gear for years, went to Digi training seminars and events (that they were good enough to pay for), and kept asking all the while: where are my stable drivers for this card? You see, I hate the PT software - it sucks. Nuff said, its all a matter of preference and I won't argue that with anyone. But I use Logic, and at the time was on Windows. Three, four years went by, and still nada. They would tell me, "any day now", and the days kept passing by....

Well, I shelved the card when I picked up a 2408. It sat in this machine or that, but never got any use. Eventually, I picked up a Quicksilver and then an iBook. Dropped my vs880 which I used for composition and bought an MBox. I dreaded buying it, but it was the only thing out at the time that did what it did except for the MiniME and being the poor sod that I am, didn't have the bucks for that.

Many months later, I was kicking myself for buying the piece of **** because there was no stable driver for third party software. Not even on OS9. In the end, I had to spend more money to purchase a liscence for a third party driver ( Propogamma) which still wasn't bulletproof, but at least worked most of the time. When I switched to OSX, I had to endure further waits of multiple months for a driver that worked on it. In fact, this delayed my entry into X for more than six months.

Yeah, I know what your saying - had a bought a core system, that wouldn't have been a problem. But I say to you, customer support is customer support. I will never buy another Digi product as long as I live (I hope - if I do, I have no one but myself to blame).

My list of gripes with Digi goes on further, but I won't bore you with it. A lot of them have been enumerated by others. I couldn't let that go, though, as I finally dropped my MBox on ebay last week and am happily using a Firewire 410 now, with no problems and an extra USB port to spare. And about 20$ in my pocket from the difference in cost. Thanks Digi, for years of broken productivity and aggravation.

Out.

But you hear that kind of stuff about every company. Digidesign is no better and no worse than any other.

Anaconda, to me it makes sense that you recorded to analog tape first then moved it digital. We all know there's a richness to 2" tape that hasn't been duplicated in digital. But if I had a choice of moving it to a 2424 or Protools, I'd choose Protools without question. Why? mostly so I could do clean edits but also because of the mixing power.

Pichaga - I'm sorry you got bad customer service in 1995 from Digidesign over an Audiomedia III card. The year is now 2004 last time I checked. I think after nine years you owe it to yourself to re-evaluate Protools TDM. Two studios I work with have recorded countless bands on Protools Mix+ and still do today. Protools HD offers a lot more processing power but many do not switch because they would have to replace their plugins which is also costly. Your comments about CPUs being powerful enough today isn't far off with the coming of 64bit software to take advantage of 64bit processors. However I still disagree. The two Protools cards I have in my HD system are gigantic PCI cards and chock full of dsp chips. I think of them as containers for the number of instances of DSP (plugins) I can use at one time. Really, check out Protools HD sometime and you'll see what I mean.

To all -- look this thread is getting kinda tired. If you all wanna think I'm from outer space for thinking Protools is a better product than the rest - so be it. I find all your observations informative and fun and will take them under advisement. And by the way, yes, there are tons of features I'd like to see added to Protools. For example, software instruments and samplers are awesome when they work right but great sounds can be very processor and memory intensive. The highly anticipated Mach Five fell short for most people. They'll get it, it's just not quite there yet. I'd like to see the power of Gigastudio incorporated into Protools. That'd be something. Cheers.

Oh and Anaconda. I'll try to keep that wood in my pants if it's ok with you

Justin, the power of Gigastudio - actually greater power than Giga 2 (the current version) - is in Emagic's EXS24. Kontak isn't as efficient, but the latest version is also very good. The only problem is that it's not practical to run EXS24 on multiple machines, and until we get 64-bit memory addressing, one machine isn't really enough to deal with large libraries (e.g. Vienna Symphonic Library).

Everyone's eagerly awaiting Giga 3.

However, Pro Tools isn't set up to deal with these large libraries, especially the orchestral ones. Briefly, the reason is that you need to have dozens of articulations loaded up and ready to try out for each phrase or even each note.

I'm not posting this to fuel the stale argument, just explaining that other samplers than MachFive are working very well.

By the way, the Access Virus Indigo plug-in for PT is awesome if you're looking for a software synth that won't eat up your CPU (since you have Pro Tools hardware).

It was stale 6 pages ago.

Two things, though:

I agree, Nick. For the most part. But, back to the MBox - they released a standalone driver for the product to make it compatible with other applications 3 to 4 months AFTER they made it available in PT 6 (I think it was actually prior to 6 - its been so long, and has happened so many times). There were no significant differences between the driver they used in the LE release and that released as a standalone. I know, I had to borrow someones disk for the install. Fortunately they did not require authorization of the software to get the driver to work, which makes my point - they could've made the update available to all, and didn't (the PT update can't be used without the iLok stuff anyway). The ploy is to get people to upgrade to 6 (which they don't need, because they don't use it) just to get the driver. They've done this on a consistent basis. That is not support - its extortion. I've not had that situation with other companies - on the contrary, most other companies strive for compatibility.


Didn't you at one point say you were a BTester for FXTeleport? Whatever happened with that? Was that on PC or Mac? It seems like a viable solution, but I check in at the site every once in a while and there's still no word....

Peace.

Digi's extortion-like business practices also really cost me a LOT of money and time years ago with my nubus system and soured me on their company. The smpte slave driver ripoff, the optical backup systems that didn't work, software conflicts and stability issues... Avid did the same crap even before they joined forces - putting their logos on stock apple drives and selling them as "sanctioned" equipment for twice the price. As soon as the opportunity presented itself to work on another system that got the job done, I never looked back. I believe in spending my money (as much as possible) to support companies that treat people fairly and honestly, & that have good energy behind them. If you think because 5 or 10 years have passed that changes exclusionary intentions or unethical ways of doing business, that's rediculous, particularly in this instance.

Justin, here's the clincher: I heard that Bush is using Pro Tools to pre-record his weekly radio addresses. Whaddaya think now?

FXT is PC-only at the moment, but what it does is stream audio and MIDI over ethernet from one machine into another. That's a substitute for a sound card or a mixer - a great thing but a totally different subject.

The reasons you can't use EXS24 MK II (as opposed to the player, which doesn't stream) on multiple machines practically are that a) you'd have to buy a whole new Logic Pro to do that, and b) even if you were to do that, the workaround to keeping multiple Audioinstrument channels open for live input involves inserting I/O plug-ins on all the tracks you want open. That eats up too much CPU.

By the way, I sure wish Emagic would come out with an EXS host program. Not only would that let you use EXS on multiple machines, it would let you run that program on the same G5 as Logic so you can get around the 2GB-per-program limitation.

Some people tried running multiple instances of Logic on G5s and using the I/O plug-in trick, but it turned out to be impractical for actual use.

Anaconda's comment about Digidesign's marketing campaign is right on the money.

Logic, which I believe is a very powerful program, still has the perception in the marketplace as a "complex tool for composition". Don't know if Apple intends this or not or where they're going with it. Pro Tools, on the other hand, has the perception as a "utility"...i.e. everyone needs it (this perception is overseas as well). I couldn't imagine a serious, commercial studio existing without Pro Tools.

As a Logic user, I've been reluctant to add Pro Tools to my own set up because:

a) I love the way Logic's proprietary plug-ins integrate with the application.

b) Powerful midi AND recording capabilities

c) Open architecture (i.e. it works with less expensive hardware).

While I do think there's a place for Pro Tools in my set up (don't know at what price), things keeping me from going there are:

a) General fear of plug ins (add'l cost and my own lack of knowledge about which ones are high quality)

b) LE or TDM....can't decide

c) Possible project maintance hell (i.e. I already have difficulty maintaining Logic files on my HD).

Anybody recently move ONTO Pro Tools?

While I won't slam Protools as a product because, as you all know, I think it's awesome, for the most part I agree their customer service and business practices leave much to be desired. But I'm not looking back to the years of NuBus, I mean in computer years, NuBus is the dark ages.

For those who don't know - here's the real beef. There are a lot of Protools TDM Mix+ owners using OS9 and PT 5 who have been for many years. In or around 2001, the Protools HD hardware upgrade became attractive because it had 2-3 times more DSP power than Mix+. It also had up to 24/192 recording. The catch is you have to replace all your plugin software. Even more maddening is now that OS X has come out with a decent iteration, namely Panther, you have to upgrade to Protools version 6 and dump your plugins once again for new versions.

Now I can't blame Digidesign for being forced to move to OS X - that's just the progression of the Macintosh. It was a shock to me to learn that all Macs after the G4 quicksilver model are incapable of running OS 9. Clearly Apple has drawn a line in the sand and said, "we want everyone to move forward to OS X."

What would've been nice was if owners of recent copies of Waves, for example, got free or cheap upgrades to OS X. Instead, these companies have made it expensive.

Eventually, I too will move to Protools 6 on OS X - actually I have 2 drives going now with a version of each but am still mostly using OS9 running PT 5.3.1 - mostly because I can't afford to upgrade.

Another note is this - it's well known Mix+ users keep their systems because internet crackers broke the copy protection of the bulk of the plugin's used for that system. When Protools HD came along they introduced I-Lok and the internet underground for the most part hasn't caught up.

My feeling is, for $15K, Digidesign better provide me with a host of great plugins. I feel they've only made marginal improvements in this offering. Recently they bought the bombfactory plugins and offer them as part of their package. They need to do the same with Waves and maybe Autotune. They also need to include a kickbutt sampler. While we're at it, they should include a great cd burning program like what masterlist used to be. If they did these things I'd be even more loyal than I already am.

My wish for a DAW is to have an integrated product that is reliable and has most of the tools I need to do the job. Nuff said.

A bigger reason a lot of MIX users keep their systems is that the upgrade costs over $5k for the hardware exchange. And MIX hardware won't work on G5s.

But the kickass sampler is as simple as buying Kontakt.

Fiery, you do know about ESB, right? It's eight outputs for the entire native Logic engine directly into the TDM mixer. You don't have to give up the native plug-ins, EXS, or anything else.

Nick,

I didn't know about the ESB....thanks for cluing me in. What would be an appropriate piece of hardware on the Digi side to enable this (to get my feet wet w/mixing in PT, etc).

Thanks

Unfortunately, ESB is only for TDM. So there's no "feet wet" system. Pro Tools is like that: $500, $1000, $2000, and then $10,000 for TDM.

Another example of what I'm talking about: ESB. That was an addition to Logic that occurred "no thanks to Digidesign". From what I understand, that was NOT a developmental partner arrangement; it was, instead, an Emagic hack of the Digi protocol. Correct me if you know I'm wrong, that's just what I heard from "reliable sources".

Who knows. Apple and Digidesign went on a promotional tour together recently, so things may have changed if that was the case.

Justin please pull your head out of your arse and take a deep breath for a minute. "Nubus is the dark ages". Maybe in the computer world. But believe me there are a ton of people who still feel the sting and are paying for thier "antique" nubus blow tools set ups. Again no upgrade path or option, Just eat it., suckers. "What would have been nice was if owners of recent copies, got free or cheap upgrades, instead, these companies have made it expensive". Bonehead, I wonder where they learned how to turn a buck screwing people in this manner. Your sounding like a bigger hypocrite with each post Justin. Take your own advice and stop now.

Vinco, I don't agree with everything Justin says either, yet it's not getting me worked up. Why are you taking it so personally? It's not like we're debating politics...

Nick. He is wrong. Plain and simple. He keeps digging the hole deeper and I will continue to shovel dirt on him. Hopefully the tomb will be sealed soon.

Vinco -

From a Living Colour song:

"You're like a dull knife, you just ain't cuttin', you're just talkin' loud, you ain't sayin' nothin'."

For the sake of argument, Vinco, let's say you're 100% right.

Congratulations!

And BFD. You still haven't explained why this ****es you off enough to start flinging Vs.

It's ok Nick. Anyone in this forum is free to say what they want -- even when it's unsupported rhetoric.

Interestingly, Emagic would have you believe that Logic is predominently used in some very major studios (through its color ads which I'm sure you've all seen).

I very much doubt this to be the case and these studios are likely to be just happy collecting the sponsorship checks.....

All the major studios are likely to have all the major programs their clients use for composing: Logic, Performer, Cubase, and Sonar.

I'm trying hard to explain that this isn't a question of Pro Tools, Nuendo, and Sequoia/Samplitude being high-end and other programs being low-end. It's a matter of horses for courses.

FWIW, I know several major studios in NY - and probably more importantly, producers and engineers who bring rigs INTO these studios - prefer to use a Logic/ProTools combination. Lots of guys prefer Logic on the "front end" for its ease of editing, flexible "environment" programming, powerful plug-ins and MIDI capabilities. They use Logic as the preferred interface with Pro Tools hardware on the "back end" providing I/O, DSP and mixing.

It makes a lot of sense, to me.

I don't know if you can still do this with Pro Tools HD and the new, Apple-owned Logic 6.0, but plenty of folks work this way with Pro Tools Mix systems and Logic 5.xx.

Dunno, but Real World obviously uses Logic in house, and PG uses it for something or other live. Interesting set up those guys use, if you've seen them live. Its PRETTY COOL.

I know that PG does use Logic to compose, and that he was drawn to Logic because of its color coding capabilities (i.e. coloring regions and sections). Apparently this helped him divvy out appropriate parts to respective musicians.....this is apparently (or was) fairly unique to Logic.

Thanks Nick. I am 100% correct. And Justin is 100% wrong by saying that DAW's other than Pro Tools are pro- sumer.I know guys with pro tools rigs and to a man they all cop to its limitations, they simply like it for its editing environment, which to me is about its only strong point. Does it sound any more pro than any of the others ? Hell no. And his statements to the contrary are un educated, un informed rhetoric. BFD, maybe? But when our forum administrator rambles on and on like some kind of blathering fool, it makes us all look bad. And your wrong to think I am all bent out of shape about this. I dont lose any sleep over someone elses idiotic comments.

Your Forum Administrator also has a point of view and doesn't mind rude insults. Geez I guess that word pro-sumer hit a nerve with you guys. I suggest a trip to Radio Shack to shake it off. Common Vinco, I've seen you in there wearing a trenchcoat and sunglasses. It's all good.

I thought my daughter would get a kick out of this web drama, but evidently, it's tame compared to the "Who's hotter...Depp or Bloom?" debate.

Now you have crossed the line of common decency Justin. You have outed me at Rad Shack.

Do you really need Protools??? Yes you do!

Jusin, I hope you are joking. The real answer depends on a few factors that WWIII does not seem to indicate 100%. I would say that WWIII does not need PT...number one, he can't afford it. Number two, he can't afford it. And, number three, LE is a joke...so, the final answer: he does not need PT. DP, Logic, Nuendo, the latest Cubase all blow PT LE completely away. So why would anyone buy PT LE unless they were just being ead astray simply by the name "Protools". Don't get me wrong, if it were in his budget to get PT HD and it would not take away from his budget to also have good mic pres and mics etc, then sure, why not add it to the studio, next to DP or Logic or Nuendo or an old Paris system!? But he doesn't have that kind of a budget... So it seems like rediculous and bad advice to give to him. I consider it a wrong against him to give such advice, knowing that there are far superior tools for the job within his budget. Digi 002 is a joke compared to the other options in that price range. With DP3.1 or 4 you an export the DP file as an OMF interchange document then the PT studio can open it with Digitranslator perfectly as a PT session; --very simple and quick...first hand knowledge and experience with this many, many times...works wonderfully. Dude, give it a rest. --good grief! :rolleyes:

I get 32 tracks with LE. I use the DA7's converters. The sound is great. Some of the bands I work with are getting signed, some are national acts already, others are selling tons of their CDs, and still others are getting airplay. And... I made 50K using LE (001) and a mac in 10 months. It is a pretty good joke! I guess everything is relative. I have Nuendo, DP, Logic, Samplitude, Vegas, etc., but PT for me is the best for the way I like to work. The HD systems are very expensive, but I just wanted to chime in on the above quote. Even Nuendo is $1,300 before hardware and computer costs. Cheers!

Paul - I'm not joking.

I can't speak directly to how good PT LE (001 or 002) are but apparently Scannon, theproduca and tons of others don't think it's a joke - frankly I'm amazed Scannon get's 32 tracks out of a native system - I wonder if that represents the max. number of simultaenous tracks he can record at one time.

In terms of software, Protools is 2nd to none. I could list a host of reasons but I'll give you just one... It's by far the easiest to learn and use. Ok here's another. Rock solid reliable.

To sum up, here's why I feel the way I do.

1.) I still don't believe a computer running native audio software is sufficient to do professional recording (although if anyone could change my mind on this, it would be Scannon). To use a lot of plugins, you need the power of additional cards/hardware. I guess if you're using a ton of outboard gear, maybe not, but I feel good plugin's (like Waves) are indispensible for crafting a mix.

2.) There are severe compromises in the leading competitors that I would not want to live with. Logic for example is great for sequencing but leaves much to be desired for audio. DP plugin's are weak and it crashes often. Nuendo is set up more like a mixing console than an editor. I have never/ever used the mix window in Protools, this is purely window dressing IMO for people who like sliders on a console. The edit window in Protools rules.

Do you need Protools?? Yes you do.

Also, stop whining about Digi's customer service and the high cost of HD. Most of you spend a fortune on instruments, mics, mic pres etc. It's all relative. A high end 24 track 2" tape machine probably costs well over $20K. Paying $17K for Protools HD|2, a Mac and Monitor, SCSI Hard Drive (or Firewire) and 96 I/O interface isn't out of line for what that system can do. Please no more stories about Nubus and Audiomedia III. Computers are much, much better today than in 1996.

I hate to say it, Justin, but you can get *way* more than 32 tracks on a native system. Over 100 of playback tracks is more like it.

And I think you'd be surprised how many plug-ins you can run on a dual gig G4, never mind a G5. I've already said that add-on DSP + native will always beat native, but to me the big advantage to TDM hardware is that it frees the native processors for running things like Altiverb!

And I don't know about Paul, but in general the only reason people say PT LE is a joke is that they regard limiting it to 32 tracks as intentionally crippling it. You can get way more than that out of the same hardware using other software that doesn't have a hard limit (DP, Logic, etc.).

Also, your argument about people's whining about the price is in a vacuum. Of course HD doesn't cost as much as a tape recorder (at least not a new one!). The comparison is to other DAWs on the market, not to hardware.

I don't think HD is a rip-off, because I agree that it's very good. But the price is a reality.

BOTTOM LINE:

Is ProTools the best performance you can get for the money?
Probably not.

Will it draw more clients, dollar for dollar, than any other investment?
Yeah, it will.

Audio purists HATE ProTools (or mixing 'in-the-box' in general -- hell, most of 'em hate digital), but businessmen LOVE it.
Also, I agree w/Justin, et al that if you HAVE to start from scratch learning software, it's the easiest one to learn. That being said, I use it only for editing, not tracking or mixing.

FYI- I mix through the DA7, and use the reverbs and delays in my rack. I easily get 32 tracks and gobs of plugins on my G4 1GHz. Rarely do I run out of juice. I send 16 outs from PT through the DA7 (bank 2) to another computer with Sound Forge and Wavelab, and TRacks, and I use the DA7's dither on the way, unless I am mixing to 24 bit. I rarely use the moving faders on the DA7 with MAX, I prefer to write the automation in PT. I say PT rocks, even with the antiquated 001, it is no joke, and has served me well. I will, however, say that the other software programs I own are also killer, and will give me a lot more tracks if I am willing to use their interface. I just happen to like the PT interface. I, too, use mainly the edit window, like Justin. The mix window does not solve any problems for me that I can't handle immediately in the edit window. My philosophy is "whatever works, use it" and "if it sounds good, it is good". I did a hundred records on a 1/2" 16 track with a carvin mixer back in the day, and this PT rig with the DA7 is light years ahead of that, especially with 32 tracks and the DA7's scene memory. More work done in less time, generating more business and more money for more stuff. Believe it or not, I also have a Sony 3324 reel to reel digital deck with an Allen and Heath 48x24 mixer as my "B" room. Great sound, but lots of work. Cheers,
Sean

Justin, the reality is that YOU want WWIII to "need" PT, but he does not actually NEED it. Who do you think you are? ...telling someone that they NEED Protools? There are other options in his price range that are better. He has already said he can't afford it...so why not come up with some alternatives? Why not discuss other good DAW's that can do more than PT LE for less money and have more open ended options for hardware? It's a big world with lots of choices...PT LE is only one choice and from what I've seen it is not as powerful a program as DP for example - not even close...As I've mentioned above, friends of mine have bought and used PT LE only to be dissappointed when they see what DP can do that they can't seem to do with their PT LE software; one of these friends has already gone out and bought DP 4 and was immediately happier (he said it was easier to understand and use, also). I have a friend that has used PT (the real one) since it's beginning and still uses it in it's latest form; he's been on the upgrade path with them for years. When he sees certain things that I do in DP that he can't do in PT it blows his mind. He has even said that he will get the DP upgrade and try to start incorporating it's power in some aspects of his studio. Of course, I know that PT (not LE) can do things that DP can't, as well. From my exposure to PT LE is seems very crude compared to DP as far as editing etc. And (once again), why do you have to have their hardware to run LE!?!?!? Our drummer has DP and when we travel and fly he can get out his laptop and work a bit, but our guitar player sadly pulls out his Mac on the plane to be limited to some Reason programming...his LE won't work without the DIGI 002 hardware. He has plainly told me that he regrets his purchase of LE and would like to go another route when he can justify the move. And of course you can make amazing full blown records with LE if you have the right gear and engineering prowess and the right band etc. Even the worst DAW is a god-like machine compared to what was available some years back. So, since we are in this era of all these DAW choices, why not look them all over and pick the best one for the job. LE just flat out can't compare to a program like DP...even though LE is a powerful piece, but they all are. In the early 70's when 24 track was possible, the band Yes took it to it's limits to create their amazing music, with lots of tape cutting edits! Just think if LE was around back then with a computer to run it (well. actually it likely would have scewed them up and we would not have their work as we know it). Of course you can do amazing things with
LE...all the DAW's can do amazing things with lots of tracks, but which of them is "better" for the kind of work you're doing? Which is open ended toward hardware choices? Which allows you freedom to edit and work away from the studio without lugging around the "required I/O"? This is one of the big issues I have with Digidesign...the requirement to have the hardware to run the software (come on...LE is native!!). In the end perhaps PT LE will be fine for WWIII, but I'm not going to tell him that he NEEDS it or even better that he NEEDS DP4. I am merely pointing out that there are other options that would allow him more freedom in terms of hardware, perhaps a "better" software for his taste and working style, perhaps for less money than even an LE system...I am not telling WWIII that he NEEDS something just because I prefer it. It just seems very obvious to me that if he needs to interface on occassion with a PT studio that there are other DAW's that can do that very easily. --good night.

I guess the word "NEED" is relative. Does WWIII need all the headaches that DP provides (crashing, poor plugins, non intuitive) go right ahead. Does WWIII need to spend $1000+ on Protools LE when he may only want to replace it later with the more powerful Protools HD|2? Maybe he doesn't have a rack full of outboard gear to compensate for the limited plugin power of LE. Who do I think I am? Look WWIII can make up his own mind and do whatever he wants. I stand by my recommendation. WWIII asked the question "Do I really need Protools???" The answer is yes, he does. :p

Ok. Here's what I did. After reading all of the posts, some for getting PT and others against it, I picked up a 002 rack. I got 1 for a steal at a local shop.

Was it worth it? From a business point of view...I would say YES. You do get a very positive response from clients when you tell them you have PT. Most don't know or don't care if you have the HD or LE system. For the clients that work at my studio and other studios (with 1 brain cell engineers), having a PT session disk will save them time and money.

I will continue to use LOGIC as my main production and recording platform. I'm so fast and efficient when using LOGIC and I get very good results. Results good enough for some of my clients to travel 50-100 miles. PT will make a difference to my clients that have the money to mix their projects at a large commercial studios.

I think it comes down to:
Will I get good results with PT? Yes
Will I get a return on my investment? Yes
Will it help my business? Yes
Is PT the only game in town? No
Will it be good to have both platforms? Yes

Paul, I disagree that DP is "better" than PT LE or that it can "do more," or I should say I don't view it that way. There's a lot of overlap, but they're different types of programs.

Obviously DP has more features. It's also several hundred dollars, compared to an MBox and PT LE for under $500. If you want to compare hardware systems, that's another matter.

What your friends are missing is that it's the little things in the interface that make people want to use PT, and you either see that from using it or you don't. There are so many lopsided comments in this thread, it's laughable.

WWIII Congrats on your purchase and good luck. It would be great if you report back to us the pros and cons of the 002 after you've used it for a while.

To all - I know I've annoyed some of you with my strong opinion on this subject and if there are hurt feelings as a result please accept my apology. I am passionate about this subject because I really believe in digital recording. I also have spent years looking at software, shaking my head and saying "how could they release this with so many bugs" or "if it only did xyz." Then you spend time eagerly anticipating the next release. I think we've all been there. It's true software and computers are getting more powerful. The best is yet to come.

WWIII, it sounds like you have a made a wise choice for your studio. Especially for how cheap dollar-wise it was to add the 002 and thus be compatible with the other studios; and yes, now you can say that you have PT. I enjoyed the replies I made on this thread; it was a fun ride while it lasted. The one issue about having to have the Digi hardware to run LE is still strange to me. At some point, WWIII, I'd like to try Logic, I'm a DP guy, but am curious about it. Maybe later this year, I'll get it just to have another way of doing things. Concerning PT, I do plan to get an old TDM system on ebay perhaps...just for the Beat Detective and Sound-replacer tools! Way cool. Good day

Sounds like a group hug coming on.
This was better than the mixerman posts.

pt le and 002... you'll love it. I have had mixes on the WB the show One Tree Hill and also mixes on the radio all from pt le and 002. Don't sweat it you'll make the money back in a minuet. Oh I read the digi boards a lot and there magazine Digizine has a lot of good learning tools like go back in the archives to the beggining of the LE workshops and they have stuff to download and practice with. Oh and save and buy the Waves plugins they are GREAT a must for mixing and mastering.
good luck
sam

WorldWarIII,

Congrats on your purchase. As a fellow Logic user, I am interested to hear any experiences with your new PT set up, client wise or otherwise.

Did you consider the 002 (non rack)?

No, just because of my setup. I have no room for a controll surface. In addition, I'm very used to the mouse and keyboard for controlling everything. I will post how it is working with the 002.

I know, Waves is a must have. I use Waves with LOGIC.

Once again Justin I have to call you out again for more of your mis information. In all the years of my dealing with DP and I have tons of freinds who use it. Not one of us have ever had problems with it crashing. We can also use about any plug we want save for blow tools own DINR, Amp farm and such. But we use stuff that blows those plugs away now.Have you even checked out UAD-1 or Altiverb? How about a VST wrapper ? I geuss none of these would work on your pute either.Do you know how to run and maintain a Mac.? All good questions If you cant run these programs on a G4 or later.The silliest reason in the world to move to a mac is to just run Pro tools TDM. Maybe you should go back to Windows. You have spent years l@@king at software. Instead you should learn how to use it.
DP = Pro
Forum admin. = Amatuer.

About all WWIII can hope is that its not a paper weight like M Box In a couple years.

The interesting thing about this thread is that it started out about one person's choice and evolved into...whatever you call this exchange... here's to making good music on whatever system you're working on!

I'd love to continue this discussion with you Vinco but I'm kinda tired of your personal attacks. They're not necessary are they?

I use both Macs and PCs but much prefer Macs for multi-tracking. It's a better OS for audio (both 9 and X) virtually free of spyware and viruses if you want one reason.

Yes I have Altiverb which rocks.

It's well known DP4 had a slow rollout this year that didn't support many plugin's like Waves. I don't think MachFive's done that well either compared to NI's Kontact. Maybe that's changed, I haven't really followed it. Go on Vinco, educate us with your infinate wisdom...

Its not about out my wisdom. It's about yor inane comments. They are just plain un educated in my opinion. And I would call anyone else on this forum out for the kind of comments you have been making all these pages. By the way your wrong again. Waves runs just fine on OSX and DP4.

Justin, as far as I know ALL of the Waves plugs work with DP as they always have. I own almost every Waves plug made. Also, my DP system runs very smoothly...crashing on my Mac is mostly with Internet Explorer on occassion. DP is great...on RARE occassion there may be a crash.

Kontakt had a rough start on Macs too. The latest version 1.5.2 is very good, but before that it had some real problems. And the working version of Kompakt has only just come out.

DP had a rough start on OSX but with Panther and DP 4.12 it's come of age once again as the most flexible editing system in the world, the galaxy.....dare I say the multi-verse?
BTW; 3 crashes with ProTools 6.2 HD 192 today while working at a multi-million dollar facility. Zero at my place with DP 4.12 since Panther came out.
Go figure.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Justin:
[QB]
It's well known DP4 had a slow rollout this year that didn't support many plugin's like Waves. I don't think MachFive's done that well either compared to NI's Kontact. Maybe that's changed, I haven't really followed it.


Justin, you're in the dark ages regarding DP. I'm using DP. DP4.12 with 6 NI soft synths, waves plugs, Spectrasonic plugs, Antares etc. It all works and now that it's all compatible, NEVER crashes. I'm using it for weeks. NEVER crashes.! And unintuitive? Are you thinking about it's audio editing features of 3 years ago. What do you mean? How could it be more intuitive? I like PT as well and mixed half an album recently on HD which I was pleased with, but you're way of base on what you think DP is about.

Hey Dan. We are lovin all the Spectrasonics, and NI stuff as well. Especially Trilogy, FM7, B4 and Pro 53. Have you picked up the Korg Legacy bundle yet? I know your a Oasys PCI guy which we are wearing out. Looking to pick up another. Any who, good luck with you crashy DP set up. :rolleyes:

DSP cards are great but with the new G5s and faster PCs, they will eventually phase out. The processing power of these things are phenomenal and with the ability to max your ram at 8 GB, whoa. Do you need Pro Tools? It really depends on who you are working with. I use DP and have gotten as good or better results than Protools projects I have heard. To be honest, all of these programs are pro level daws, but none are all inclusive. As some mentioned, there are so many factors to a good recording other than the software, the main one being the operator. If you have any of the major daws and pro outboard gear and your recordings dont sound professional, maybe you need to take a good long look in the mirror to find your problem. Some of my clients want Protools, some don't, I convince them that what they really want is the best sound

Unfortunately, you can't access all that RAM, since programs have a 2GB limit per. There are ways around it, but there's no reason to have more than 4GB installed.

...not that the amount RAM has much to do with the number of plug-ins you can run. What it does have to do with is the number of programs you can have cued up if you're using large sample libraries.

.

I hear what you are saying Nick but lets remember that many of the programs have not been fully optimized for the G5s yet.

I hear the Korg Legacy stuff is a CPU pig. I tried opening more than one instance on my G4 867 and it crapped out.

I wore out my Oasys a long time ago and sold it when I first learned there would be no OSX drivers for it. It was very useful for a time. I don't have the Korg Legacy. Looks like it might have some nice possibilities. I was never much of a Polysix fan though even when the thing was new. But the fact that you can combine the synths is interesting.