my thought is that i'm delighted that i'm out of the upgrade game with that company.

Bingo.

Countdown to Justin making a post about how long he's going to have to wait to be able to afford the upgrade, explaining how he's really bummed about how expensive it will be, how this move has obsoleted his whole multi-thousand-$$ rig of just a couple of years ago, how he really, really wants all the new features - BUT, also how he still thinks this system is better than any other system out there and he just can't bring himself to dump it all and go with a native system, in...

three...

two...

one...





Also, I really like how one of the "features" of the Sync HD box is "NEAR sample-accurate" synchronization.

Is that just Avid being brutally honest about the issue (i.e. everyone else saying their products ARE, indeed "sample-accurate" is overstating it) or is that Avid basically saying "Go us! we've finally arrived at circa-1994 specs!"

mmmm, yhea! I'm glad I never got on that merry-go-round!!!

I almost went HD when I upgraded to my MacPro. I'm pretty happy that I stuck with the DM-3200 with the firewire card and DP7.

LOL! I just learned about these yesterday so I need more time to assess. I think the new software analog modeling HEAT is interesting. Here's a demo video but I can't really hear a huge difference thought my laptop speakers

http://media-cdn.avid.com/media/heat/Ninja%20Mix%20Full%20Res%20Video.mov

What these means to me is, Avid upgraded their interfaces with slightly better converters. My reaction? OK no big deal. Same cards, same software essentially as far as I can tell. More after I've read their ad slicks.

As for me upgrading, I'm done for now and happy as a clam with Intel Mac, Old PT HD}|2 non-accel cards, 96 I|O and the really cool Pro Tools Instrument Expansion pack.

What I am thinking about more and more though, is putting my DA7 out to pasture. Not because it's not still useful to me for the Preamps and I/O - but because

I really don't use it as a mixer and I want the desk space back for a midi keyboard/drum controllers so I can physically work more closely to the computer screen. Thinking about getting this cheap piece of furniture ($200) so I can rack up a couple of my most used pieces of gear and eventually replacing the DA7 preamps with some rack gear - maybe a couple of Focusrite OCTOPRE MKII Dynamics. Maybe something more high end.


What's nice about this desk is you can get up close to your computer screens and slide your feet underneath real easy. Also the casters. I don't have a big studio so this might fit the bill.

I don't use the DA-7 as a mixer either. I really never have. I use it like a digital patch bay, really. If I was trying to be really progressive or space-conscious about my set-up, I would have gotten rid of the DA-7 and gotten a few good mic pre/IOs.

I think I keep it around because a) the space it occupies is really not at a premium for me and b) I don't want to dump it for nothing but a rack of pre's and then find myself one day needing a mixer in a pinch, for a live thing or whatever.

The problem I have with furniture like that is; whether it's the mixer or a keyboard controller on the desk, I still have to move away from it, to get to the regular computer QWERTY keyboard and mouse and to be able to work with those, comfortably. So, I find that no matter what, I always want to have all my gear - mixer, keyboard controller, computer keyboard and mouse - all at desk level so, I invariably keep everything at the same level, and organize it around me in a small semi-circle, so that movement from one item to another is as efficient as possible.

"The problem I have with furniture like that is..."

A slide out drawer for the querty keyboard that fits just below the piano keyboard is a pretty simple fix for that quandry!Not perfect but certainly viable...

http://virtualinstrumentsmag.com/composersdesk/

Excuse the blatant self-promotion.

That looks great, Nick. Really well thought out.

Thanks mlange. Yes, it's the result of a lot of trial and error over the years.

The way it came about is that I'd built myself a desk using the same concept (sliding desktop going under fixed bridge shelf with speakers and computer monitor, revealing the MIDI keyboard underneath) out of Ultimate Support hardware. You don't have to move when you play the keyboard, and sliding the desktop back - which takes no time - puts the computer keyboard in the perfect position over the keys.

Every time a composer friend would come over, he's say "that's what I need." So I found a woodworking guy who took the concept way beyond anything I could have thought of. His work is just outstanding - really a true craftsman.

The desk in the pic is the prototype one I'm sitting at now, but actually even it has been modified since then - the bridge shelf has been extended forward (and the edge cutting replaced with a simpler design that fits my taste). And the ones we've built for customers have a couple of subtle tweaks we learned from this one too, but nothing anyone would notice from the picture.

We've shipped them all over the world.

At the moment we're thinking about how to make a lower-cost product, one that doesn't take so much labor and has a much lower materials cost (the wood alone is about a third of the price right now, because the frame, legs, and bridge shelf are solid hardwood and the desktop is top shelf ply - to say nothing of the drawer slides, which are a couple of hundred bucks alone). The problem is that it's too much of a niche thing to go to composition board and automated manufacturing like KK or Argosy do.

...but I don't think there's any way around using an expensive LCD arm. That's the key - floating the computer monitor (or monitors) in the right place.

We've been recommending this one, which we get at a reduced price:

http://www.lcdarms.com/products/LCD_Radial_Arms/7500.html

While it looks very functional and well made, it's also butt ugly! It looks like something that would come out of an old ladies house. Seriously, you should work with a good designer to get the asthetics up to the level of the ergonomics.

I and everyone else disagrees, and my taste has always been impeccable.

As I said, the edge cutting on the front of the bridge shelf isn't my taste, and I've had it removed from my desk. But some people have ordered it with that, so what can I say.

Looks great.

I built my own desk (I did a thread about it here). Took a day and cost about $40.00.

Someday when I take a break from building guitars I'll do something really fancy.

noah, where's the link? I'm curious.

You missed this:



That doesn't do it, nor does Nick's piece.

I've built myself a few desks that have the MIDI keyboard controller directly underneath, in a sliding drawer like that. The problem with that for me is that, with the height of a decent MIDI keyboard and a drawer and then the upper desk surface, you end up with a compromise somewhere. Either the MIDI keyboarfd is too low or the desktop surface is too high.

A true piano keyboard is in fact a little lower than a traditional desktop surface so, I initially thought it would be do-able like that (and maybe I'm just too sensitive to the height issue) but you can't get both to be the right height, with a system like that.

So, I just have a desk w/ the computer keyboard and monitor on it, right in front of me, with the DA-7 mixer on the left, angled toward me, and then a MIDI keyboard controller to my right, and other stuff (MIDI Drums, floor controllers for guitars, etc.) on my left. All arranged in a semi-circle so I can just kind of turn my chair and get to everything.

Hmmm, alrighty then... you're highly height sensitive I suppose. I guess you couldn't be one of those Rick Wakeman type guys with the giant stacks of keyboards (even though they're all setup in a semi circle)!

Nick dude, c'mon! The thing looks sort of like and old Hammond Organ console... not exactly an example of cutting edge contemporary design.

That's exactly what I used for years.... gutted console organ shells with multiple shelves installed. Three layer of keys, plus a fourth level on the top for a pair of monosynths.

I would have to find it here. It was pretty simple.

I just bought a sheet of veneer plywood, ripped it down the middle so I had two 8 x 2 sheets.

I made two boxes out of that so I can have a rack on both sides. On the top, I used an old sheet of plywood I had. I covered the top with 1/4" masonite - which is great because it acts as a giant coaster when I put glasses down and it's also easy to replace.

On top of the boxes (under the plywood) I framed it out using 3 2x4s and I put some cleats in between for strength.

I had a shelf over my mixer with my monitor on it for a while but it was a PITA looking up, so I just moved it to the side of the console.

At the same time I made a pair of speaker stands. I used a 1 x 2 piece of plywood for the bass, two 2x4s for the legs and put a piece of masonite on the front.

The bass the speakers sit on is plywood topped with MDF and trimmed out with mahogany (that was scrap from a guitar build).

I think total cost for the stands was maybe $10.00

For the racks I used some maple bed slats for rails - IIRC you actually suggested wood to me instead of metal.

So for the stands and desk I spent maybe $50.00.

I could have done it cheaper by using a lower grade plywood, but I wanted something nice I could stain.

One thing that's on my bucket list is to make some nice mahogany sides for the DM-3200. Someday I'll get around to that:)

This is before I faced the front with some nice wood so you can see the 2x4 but you get the idea. The speaker stand is visible too:



This is with the shelf, which wasn't practical. Someday I may buy a 32 inch TV and ho DVI to HDMI and mount it on the wall behind the desk.

The nice thing is there is a big walk-in closet on the right where I have my computers. I have a cable pass ($4.00 at Lowes) sending all my cables through the baseboard.

What you need to do is measure a piano so you know the height you want the keys to be at then measure your controller and subtract that.

Then build to that height and when you put your keyboard on top it will be perfect.

The only issue I see is that you probably won't be sitting on a piano bench but you probably can adjust your chair.

Noah.

I don't see where in your photos you have a drawer under the desk that holds a keyboard controller that slides out. I think that is the specific design element that we are all talking about.

As for the suggestion that all one has to do is measure a piano so you know the height you want the keys to be at then measure your controller and subtract that, then build to that height and when you put your keyboard on top, for it to be perfect:

That's not the case. Like I said, you end up losing in the compromise, somehwere.

A proper-height MIDI keyboard controller in a drawer, with a desk on top of it (unless perhaps the keyboard controller is very thin and the upper desk surface is made of a super-thin and strong material, I guess) results in a desk surface above the standard 29-31" height for a desk - or a keyboard controller that is too low.

A standard piano keyboard is 28" off the floor. A standard desk is 29-1/2" off the floor. I don't think you can even find a decent MIDI keyboard controller that is only 1-1/2" high, itself - and that's not even counting the thickness of the desk, itself. that has to support s monitor, and a mixer, above it.

So, you either have to make the keyboard controller lower than 28", in order to have the desk surface above it be the proper 29-1/2" high - or - you have to make the desk surface higher than 29-1/2" high, to be able to fit a 28" high keyboard controller under it.

I've tried both compromises, and nether felt right to me after some time using them. So, I now have my desk at 29-1/2" high, with they keyboard controller NEXT to it, at 28" high.

The Composer's Desk isn't intended to be a typical studio console holder for people with lots of rack stuff and big mixers; it's a highly specialized desk for composers, who typically work with computers and more often than not no mixer (although you can put one on the desk no problem and it'll slide with the desktop - as long as you leave a lot of slack in the wires).

Composers need lots of desk space to hold things like score paper, papers, and in my case day-to-day clutter, but also need to be able to play keys. The MIDI keyboard is at normal piano height (yes, about 29-1/2") and the desktop floats about 3" above that (depending on the keyboard model - we customize the height, but it's semi-adjustable by sticking another piece of wood under the slides if you change keyboards and need more space).

Yeah the desktop is a little higher than a typical desk, but it's totally comfortable - you just put your arms on chair arms while you're typing. I've been working with this design all day long for seven or eight years, and we've sold a bunch of them.

As I said, it takes less than a second to slide the desktop forward and reveal the keys, and everything is always in the right place: your ass, speakers, computer monitor, computer keyboard, and MIDI keyboard.

Crappy iPhone photo my wife snapped a few months ago to show how it works to a client:

[img]http://gallery.me.com/virtualinstruments#100110/IMG_0180&bgcolor=black[/img]

Well, for some reason it doesn't want to appear as a photo, but you can see the link.

That's fine, but once again - "not exactly an example of cutting edge design". My initial post was simply to point out what I thought was a lack of imagination in the design department. Obviously Nick thinks that his design sense is impeccable and leaves no room for improvement

Thanks for that opinion, DP. I disagree and so do lots of other people.

But as I sort of said, I don't like the cutting on the edge of the bridge shelf at all - it's very traditional while the rest of the design is modern. That's why I had it changed, and also the shelf extends farther forward - relatively small tweaks that to me change the whole look of the desk, because it changes the proportions.

Other than that, though, I'm actually serious that my taste leaves no room for improvement! That doesn't mean it's better than someone else's or that I might not like another design better, just that taste is taste: it's subjective. And I've had strong ideas about what I like and dislike when it comes to things like furniture and art from an early age - and believe it or not it's not arbitrary.

I see your point, Nick.

Design is a tricky thing. For a while I lived in a modern space and my furniture was all very nice but modern (Herman Miller, Eames style).

If I had that furniture in my new house it would look foolish because now I live in an old (olde?) New England style home.

Doesn't make the Noguchi table a bad design (still one of my favs) but it would not look as nice as the more traditional empire style that I have in here now.

All subjective.

My ass is in love with Herman Miller.

Hmmm, ok. I'm sure there are plenty who would agree with me as well. Obviously, you don't care - that's fine, but as a buisness person you're missing out on a huge portion of a market (a market that tend to be forward looking and tech savy) that may not care for the "hammond organ" look.

LOL! I have a vintage Herman Miller chair in my studio as well as a Danish light fixture from the 1950s.

At work I have one of those new HM chairs as well.

DP, do you really know the market? It's not that I don't care what anyone says, it's that I disagree. And I'm also not convinced you can picture what it looks like with the modified bridge shelf.

Okay, I'll admit it: as soon as the woodworker brought that shelf in, my heart sank. That edge cutting is totally wrong in my opinion, which is why the ad says something about it being an option. At some point we'll shoot another picture.

In any case, I can tell you that the segment we're really missing out on is the segment for whom the desk is too expensive. That's what we're working on.

Getting back to the original topic of this thread, has anyone looked at Avid's new interfaces? I'm not in the market really, but I'd like to stay current with what they are doing. Trouble is, I see pretty much the same box. I know they improved the AD conversion but really, was it so bad before? One complaint they've had is that the cooling fan inside the 192 is loud. Did they remove the fan in the new interface. Also, with competing interfaces from Apogee and Aurora, what benefits (if any) do these new boxes offer? Anyone?

Justin,
I heard that the new Avid interfaces are going to look just like a Hammond B3 and will be offered with a matching Leslie cabinet.

Nick,
Like I said earlier, I think that the (music) industry in general is tech savy and forward looking design wise - hence my suggestion. Ideally, it would be a good idea to offer the "composers desk" in a variety of styles (obviously!). Understandably this is difficult from a financial and manufacturing standpoint. Anyway, good luck with it - I hope you seel a bunch of 'em...

Thanks. But I have to repeat: it's a modern design as soon as you get rid of that edge cutting on the bridge shelf. I'll try to post a picture - it really does look different, almost like a stylized roll-top desk.

Hmmmm.....

Is this really true?

If so, it doesn't explain the popular practice of dressing up thoroughly modern gear and applications in various forms of "classic" and "vintage" packaging and interfaces, does it?

That's something that I see all the time and take particular notice of, because I never really understood it. Take a brand-new, all-digital modeling amp and put it in a package that looks like it was designed and built in 1959? Make some incredibly flexible, powerful and modern program or plug-in, and not only design it - but actually market the fact that - it looks on your computer screen, like a picture of a piece of gear that is half a century old?

Musicians, engineers and composers seem to be just as (even more?) likely to find comfort in established design as everyone else. At least many of them apparently do.



But I think we ALL agree that the quarter-round edge routing on that upper shelf is truly heinous...

Knife,
+1 on the 1/4 round edge routing. Get rid of that and the overall design is just fab!

I suppose you are correct in your observation, but I don't think that's the whole story. Certainly there is a comfort level in tried and true designs - hence the old looking cabinetry on amplifiers or interfaces that look like old tape machines or whatever. I just think that is the idea that "the original sound" is being captured (i.e. it's modeled) along with the feel of the interface. So, that's clearly a case that it's being sold as a "virtual" copy of the original. In Nicks case, I think he's come up with this notion of "The composers desk" (which may or may not be an original idea or product - I've certainly never heard the term befor)and therefore could use a more progressive/forward looking/contemporary design.

So I was browsing GearSluts and came across this reworked Omnirax desk. Looks good.

Desk

That's an almost.

Okay, here's a recent installation showing what it looks like without the shnorkle at the edge of the bridge shelf:


[img]http://gallery.me.com/virtualinstruments#100245/IMG_0002&bgcolor=black[/img]

Dunno why the pic doesn't show up in the post, but the link is good.

Looks nice and workable.

Are the monitors mounted on articulated arms, so they can swing away in any direction?

Rich

Yup. Actually the one on the earlier picture (my own desk) is on the same arm - you just don't see it.

I've also used the Ergotron arms, but this one - made by Innovative - is better. You can buy them on ebay (new) for a lot less; I have the big one for a 30" monitor and it was $100 rather than $450:

http://www.lcdarms.com/

He's set up differently, with the computer keyboard in front of the MIDI keyboard, but that's just the way he likes to work.

Oh, and the reason for using the LCD arms isn't as much that you can move them as that it floats the computer monitor in exactly the right position. You can move them out of the way, but I never do.

A composer friend of mine actually had his glasses focused to the distance he sits from his monitors. He still has CRT monitors on a different desk he bought years ago. But it works for him, so..

Oh yhea definitely better without the "shnorkle" !?!?!? What's that yiddish for "bad looking routing on the front moulding? In any case, it doesn't look so bad when it's covered by gear
BTW, what's up with the ghastly white strap on the Les Paul? Jeez that looks like something Elvis would have used...

www.puresoundstudio.com Build your own.

I'm 99% sure "shnorkle" (spelling? schnorchel?) is German rather than Yiddish - even though Yiddish is landlocked German. The relatives I learned it from when I was a kid (including my parents) are German Jews who never really used Yiddish words.

It means a curlicue - twee stuff, for example totally baroque. I generally don't like shnorkles (however they're spelled) out of the baroque.

I built that desk, though I suck as a carpenter. Just designed/ measured it out, had a dude cut the pieces out at Lowes 3/4" plywood, brought them back here and screwed it together. A lot cheaper way to go and make your own design.

But back to the original topic, not so sure the new interfaces well deliver a better sound quality.