Actually I think we are arguing about whether it should be for profit, EWF. I've mentioned that - and how much money it costs for it to be for profit - at least twice in this thread!

Yeah, I've seen what you've written (which I agree with) but had just been staying on the sidelines. I was referring a bit more toward the national debate we're having right now about healthcare and these town hall meetings where so many people seem to be spooked about the idea of nationalized healthcare. I just heard on the news the other day some audio from a town hall meeting with Arlen Specter where some woman brings up her unsubstantiated fears of us turning into Russia and how universal healthcare is just the beginning of socialism for us. It's amazing to me how so many people can become unhinged at the mention of "socialism." We're not talking about socializing the whole country, but to hear some of these people you'd think we were still in the middle of the Cold War and the return of Mccarthyism.

I'm officially disgusted, appalled and depressed over the way all this has come down.

Misinformation, misdirection and out right lies used to block any real debate.

I was hoping that after 8 years of idiocy the pendulum would swing back towards rationality for awhile.

Maybe it's no longer a pendulum but an unstoppable slide into hell.

I'm checking out.

Even the President of the United States of America cannot beat down greed, especially while trying to be nice about it. That's one sickness that will never be cured. It's the Golden Rule: "He with the most gold wins".

Then again, maybe a public healthcare option really was a very scary, bad idea. For civilians.

"Misinformation, misdirection and out right lies used to block any real debate"

No no, it's "freedom of speech" to prevent "a socialist government takeover of healthcare" with "death panels."

Have I by any chance mentioned that this is a mockery of democracy?

Exactly. It's amazing the sheer number of people who have no clue. You can't have effective debate and discussion when irrational fear and ignorance displace reason and an open mind.

I think you make a couple of very good points.

You pay for education so people can learn basic skills and become productive members of society. Personally, I think the government run schools are a waste of money and would rather have a voucher system. But that is not the issue.

Car insurance? Required by government because they do not feel the individual is capable of accepting the responsibility of driving (and the dangers of driving) without their help. Shouldn't it be based on the driver rather than the number of cars I own? I can only drive one at a time. But that is not the issue.

Fire departments? When I lived in a rural area, we had a volunteer fire department. No government money was available so the community built the fire house, bought the truck, practiced on their own time. Great way to actually build a community. Not the issue.

The issue is what is government's function? We will disagree because I believe in freedom and equality.

Look at 2 examples. Social Security. Costs are out of control and the system is on the verge of running out of funds. They already take over 15% of your pay check now. Is there some sort of individual account with your name on it? No! The SS tax money is placed in the general fund. That's why it is broke. I do not trust the government to handle more taxation. SS is a government fraud to increase revenue for the government to spend somewhere else.

Second example addresses private vs Public. The post office. Fedex, DHL, UPS all deliver stuff more efficiently than the post office does. Why? Because they are not bloated bureacracies. The private sector companies make a profit, share the profit with it's stockholders. The post office is poorly managed (with huge bonuses give to management for do a poor job) but if it needs more money, the government just gives it more.

Let me sum it up:

Health Care
1)Not a function of government (consumer protection IS a function but somehow elected officials help the HMOs before the people who voted for them)

2)Could have post office type management. In other words - poor, wasteful and when you consider health care this becomes dangerous.

3)With the program comes new taxation and the potential for fraud along the lines of Social Security.

$.02

Zrocks,



No, we disagree because we've formed different opinions over the course of our lives.

"We will disagree because I believe in freedom and equality"

No, we disagree because we've formed different opinions over courses of our lives.

You have an irrational anti-government attitude that's at the heart of why our country is so divided. It's particularly prevalent in Red states among more unsophisticated people - with notable Blue state exceptions like Josef, who formed that attitude behind the Iron Curtain where it was appropriate - and for this country it sucks. What really gets my goat is the "freedom and equality" religious vomit, which is total inversion of reality since it has everything to do with the opposite.

The irony is that this is the absolute worst time to be libertarian, to the point that I almost feel sorry for these fools. Big Government action just averted another Great Depression - here and in other countries - yet these ridiculous people still go on believing the same crap as if nothing had happened.

Anyway, cynical stirring of that ridiculous attitude is behind the "government takeover of healthcare" lies- under the banner of "freedom of speech," as if all speech is equal - that have very likely defeated the best chance in our lifetimes for meaningful healthcare reform. And the very assholes who have swallowed that shit sandwich are the ones who would have benefited from it the most.

At least my mail continues to get delivered reliably every day.

With all due respect, freedom and equality are not opinions. Either you believe and practice freedom and equality or you do not. We probably share good intentions and a desire to help and lend a hand to our brothers and sisters but to do so at the cost of freedom and equality is wrong.