(Mark Steyn)
DISSENT IS THE HIGHEST FORM OF PATRIOTI... No, wait, that
bumper sticker expired January 20th. Under the stimulus bill, there's a
new $1.3 trillion bills-for-bumpers program whereby, if you peel off
old slogans now recognized as environmentally harmful
("QUESTION AUTHORITY"), you can trade them in for a new
"CELEBRATE CONFORMITY" sticker, complete with a holographic
image of President Obama that never takes his eyes off you.
"The right-wing extremist Republican base is back!" warns the
Democratic National Committee. These right-wing extremists have
been given their marching orders by their masters: They've been
directed to show up at "thousands of events," told to "organize,"
"knock on doors" ...
No, wait. My mistake. That's the e-mail I got from Mitch Stewart,
Director of "Organizing for America" at BarackObama.com. But that's
the good kind of "organizing." Obama's a community organizer. We're
the community. He organizes us. What part of that don't you get?
When the community starts organizing against the organizer, the
whole rigmarole goes to hell. Not that these extremists showing up at
town hall meetings are real members of the "community." Have you
noticed how tailored they are? Dissent is now the haut est form of
coutur ism. Senator Barbara Boxer has denounced dissenters from
Obama's health care proposals as too "well-dressed" to be genuine.
Only the Emperor has new clothes. Everyone knows that.
Thankfully, White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs has seen
through the "manufactured anger" of "the Brooks Brothers brigade."
Did he announce this in a crumpled suit? He's a Press Secretary who
won't press. Apparently, the health care debate now has a dress code.
Soon you won't be able to get in unless you're wearing Barack Obama
mom-jeans, manufactured at a converted GM plant by an assembly
line of retrained insurance salesmen. Any day now, Hollywood will
greenlight a new movie in which an insane Sarah Palin figure picks
out her outfit for spreading disinformation (The Lyin', The Witch And
The Wardrobe).
Meanwhile, Nancy Pelosi, Speaker of the House, added her own
distinctive wrinkle to the Brooks Brothers menswear. She disdained
the anti-Obamacare protests as fake grassroots. "I think they're
AstroTurf," she declared. "They're carrying swastikas and symbols
like that to a town meeting on health care."
Is this one of those Chinese Whispers things? Obama told Gibbs to
tell Boxer to tell Reid, and by the time it reached Pelosi, it came out as
uniforms night: Brooks Brothers. Mel Brooks. Springtime for Hitler.
Swastikas. Or is the Speaker right to sound the alarm about this army
of goosestepping dandies? A veritable Garbstapo jackbooting down
the Interstate like it's a catwalk in Milan.
Fortunately, this president doesn't fold like a Robert Gibbs suit. He
won't give in to the attire pressure. So, on Monday, the official White
House Web site drew attention to the alarming amount of
"disinformation about health insurance reform." "These rumors often
travel just below the surface," warned Macon Phillips, Chief
Commissar of the Hopenstasi ...whoops, I mean White House
Director of New Media, "via chain e-mails or through casual
conversation."
"Casual conversation," eh? Why can't these "dissenters" just be like
normal people and read off the teleprompter?
"Since we can't keep track of all of them here at the White House,
we're asking for your help," continued Commissar Phillips.
"If you get an e-mail or see something on the Web about health
insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov."
Reporting dissent is the highest form of patriotism! Is your neighbor
suspiciously "well-dressed"? Is he mouthing off about cancer survival
rates under socialized medical systems while wearing a cravat? Give
us his name, and we'll give you his spats! Just go to
flag@whitehouse.gov, not to be confused with
flagging@whitehouse.gov., which is the e-mail address for reporting
President Obama's latest approval rating. Go to flay@whitehouse.gov
if you'd like Speaker Pelosi to walk across your back as a whip-
wielding SS dominatrix barking "Vee hoff vays of making you tokk
less casually, dumbkopf!" Go to flange@whitehouse.gov if you need
parts for your new government car, or your new government hip
replacement. Go to flaunt@whitehouse.gov if you'd like a special
preview of President Obama's latest bare-chested pictorial for Vanity
Fair. Go to flatulent@whitehouse.gov if you'd like to report your
neighbor's cow for excessive CO2 emissions.
Better yet, just send everything on everyone to the White House.
Unsure about that old hippie artist across the street? The one who
said, "Yeah, I voted for Obama 'cause I thought it'd be cool to have an
African-American president. But, since the economic downturn, the
bottom's really dropped out of my hemp tapestry market." He seems to
be starting to entertain impure thoughts about the Dear Leader's plans
for us, doesn't he? And yet, with the best will in the world, one
couldn't really describe him as a snappy dresser, could one? It's a
tough call. So best be on the safe side, and report everyone. The
Administration can hire people to sift through it all, and that will
stimulate the economy even more than the new cashmere-for-clunkers
program: Are you an angry right-wing fop? Why not trade in your
frankly effete sweater for an evening with Joe Biden?
The Washington Post's Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite (not, as far as I
know, a Brooks sister to the Brooks Brothers) says "the town hall
demolition derby" is "cynically designed and carried out in order to
destroy real debate in the public square over health insurance reform."
Decrying the snarling, angry protesters, liberal talk-show host Bill
Press (no relation to the Corby Trouser Press) says that "Americans
want serious discussion" on health care. If only we'd stuck to the
President's August timetable and passed a gazillion-page health care
reform entirely unread by the House of Representatives or the Senate
(the world's greatest deliberative body) in nothing flat, we'd now have
all the time in the world to sit around having a "serious discussion"
and "real debate" on whatever it was we just did to one-sixth of the
economy.
But a sick, deranged, un-American mob has put an end to all that
moderate and reasonable steamrollering by showing up and yelling
insane, out-of-control questions like, "Awfully sorry to bother you,
your Most Excellent Senatorial Eminence, but I was wondering if you
could tell me why you don't read any of the laws you make before you
make them into law?"
The community is restless. The firm hand of greater organization is
needed.
© Mark Steyn

Why don't you post something positive and intelligent, Josef? This is just stupid shit.

I don't have a clue what he is trying to say.

How about a 3 sentence distillation of all those words.

What are you trying to tell us?

Please give us your words!
I mean it!
What are your words?

I'm willing to listen if you have some positive input to make things better.
I'm too tired of both sides posting endless meaningless junk.

<yawn>

Well... perhaps I just can't resist sharing this stupid shit with my friends. My words... ? Over the last 35 years I've made many attempts for intelligent, fact-based and civil dialogue with nothing but hope in my heart. Yeah... I even risked my own life doing that - but it was all worth it if I could do my little part in helping to get rid of the communist plague ravaging my people.

No, I'm not bitter... I'm thankful everyday for what this country did for me and for so many others around the world. And no... I don't mean to sound melodramatic when I express a certain dose of sadness when I see what's happening on so many fronts to this imperfect but still beautiful country full of honest and trusting people. No... I can't expect those name calling, all-knowing, all-smart, all-funny and all-above it to ever understand my point. And... yes, I plead guilty. Once in a while I do feel a little hopeless about the future of our species in general, thus resulting in sarcasm and cynicism.

I know this forum isn't about venting social-political views... But at the same time I like hanging out with real people. I know there are far more suitable formats for political debates, e.g., over beer, etc... so I'll try to restrain myself a bit more... but I won't bet my house on it.

I guess it's never so bad, that it can't be worse... so much for my words.

When bunch of highly paid PR assholes lie, spread stupidity, hire unsophisticated people to shout down discourse... basically sodomize what's probably going to be the most important domestic policy decision made in the next generation...well, that's a mockery of democracy. There's nothing all-knowing, all-smart, or anything else- it's simply cynical abuse of the freedoms we have.

I assume you are referring to ACORN.

"what's probably going to be the most important domestic policy decision made in the next generation..."

So why did they try to ram it through without even reading it? Don't you think it's outrageously irresponsible? I'm not saying our health care doesn't need fixing... but maybe they should start with Medicare first.

Btw, and then, only after realizing they don't have the votes, Mr. Obama has the audacity to say (while smirking) "there are those who claim we won't even read the bill... let me be clear, we have over six weeks to read it and when Congress comes back from recess, I'll go over it line by line with anyone who has questions"... and now he saved us from a depression by ramming a $800 billion pork bill... give me a frigging break... He's almost as good of a pretender as those from the old communist regimes ....

How much does he think he can insult our intelligence? Oh, I forgot... Bill Maher said the other day "this is a stupid country full of stupid people."

Well at last if nothing else Josef has at least lived in it and can speak from experience.

Most americans speak out of ignorance and fear on both sides. I find it funny that the Reps spin and lie so much and just look ignorant when they know they are lying. Then the Dems lie and spin and then scorch who ever doesnt join them even when caught. This tactic they are employing now is similar to when G Bush acted like I won so I can do what I want. The Dems now have the same attitude as Gavin Newsome - You cant'stop us now - Well we know how that turned out. The American people are funny like that - Don't tell them what to do. If they think the Town hall Meetings are bad now, If they don't start listening to people and acknowledging it, its going to expand.

10 yearz of republicn failure wont go away in 8 monthz

Yeah thats it.. Its all One parties fault.. typical

Acorn?!

That's all you can come up with?

And Kecinzer, that is the most ridiculous hype. Nobody read the bill. Come on. There's no way you can spend $800 billion in a hurry to get the money into the economy without there being waste, but I don't agree with you that our government is totally useless and everything they do is crap. We've had far more great legislation over the years than bad legislation.

I believe we need to do more than fix Medicare, we need to expand it and over time get rid of the private insurance companies. These assholes who are trying to stop healthcare reform totally are the ones who are insulting your intelligence.

Finally, Kecinzer has had experience in a Communist country. The people who ran it are from the same species and have the same weaknesses; people are the same everywhere. But the circumstances were totally different, and saying that our government is the same - especially now that we've got rid of the worst administration in our entire history - is simply not reality.

Doggn' is absolutely right, in fact I'd go farther and say that we're trying to recover from a whole generation of Republican failure. It's not all their fault, but our current problems started with Reagan but got exponentially worse during Bush 2.

Good question. How long do you think Palin will keep up her "death squad" bullshit? The latest ticker on CNN said she expects Obama to use his "death squad" to determine Trig's health care.

There is a REASON the insurance industries are pushing so hard to fight this - their days of big money are about over. If they can't compete with the efficiency of a government run plan, they deserve to be out of business. Anyone is certainly free to keep using them. There is NOTHING that ends private health care - only offers alternatives to people that don't want to pay their prices, or who the insurance industry refuses to cover.

And planting fake disenters in a town hall is nothing new ... think Joe the Plumber/Newscaster/waste of life/etc. The fact that the questions aren't prescreened and planted like in the Bush days should be more telling.

guess what dog, it iz. u can breathe the hype all u like, but ur boize f*kked up bad and now u want pretend like itz everybodyz fault. nope, cant hav it both ways. u wanted no govt in biz and biz screwed u big tyme. u want no govt in health care but u gladly let insrnce co's f*ck ur ass daily. conservs r the biggest hores in town - theyr asses r open & waitin'

and they have handels like sugrnutz

Well, have it your way... enjoy the red tape and bureaucracy - You deserve it! Nice to see you actually read the post..

"and now he saved us from a depression by ramming a $800 billion pork bill"

Uh, I believe the "bailout" was done in the waning days of the highly successful Bush administration...(prior to Obama becoming President...)

What will it take to let go of our divisive herd mentality? Maybe an asteroid would do. God help us all...

DP, we can throw the blame around 'till Kingdom Come... Reps screwed with Iraq, Dems gave us Fannie and Freddie fiasco... We got a lot of fixing to do. Perhaps just one four-year term limit for all politician would be a good start.

Nick, it has been well-documented... too many to list.

Listen carefully: HERE

Does he knows his own Health Care bill? Admitedly not.


And of course the Stimulus Bill: HERE

The health care bill isn't even a bill yet. He clearly understands the issue inside out, though.

And yes, there's plenty of blame to give both parties.

But the real damage to this country started with Ronald "Iran Contra" Reagan, the God of the Republican Party - the one that being a member of is a social disorder, as Naomi Wolfe put it. Apart from being a criminal and one of our worst presidents, RICR brought the era of minimal compassion to our government, in which cutting taxes at the top is sold as doing middle class people a favor (and raising them is shouted down as socialism - as if that were intrinsically bad). His jackass "free market" privatization policies led directly to the government of/by/for the lobbyists we have now.

The other side of the coin, which is why Democrats are infinitely better even if they aren't perfect, is that they're hisorically the ones responsible for all the good legislation that impacts our lives today. FDR and the New Deal, LBJ and the Great Society...and there are lesser but important things along the way. Contrast that with Richard Nixon and - I'd have to say worse - Bush II.

There is no "center." Republicans specifically and conservatism in general is a big bowl of suck. The era when their approach was right ended several generations ago.

Yes.

Government of/by/for lobbyists is a direct product of recent Republican politics...

And of course, a bigger government (a standard Democratic/Left -wing ideal that Nick espouses routinely) will NOT lead to any greater special interest lobbying or legislation.

It just won't.

Right?


Listen up, people. Here's the deal:

This country was founded on principles libertarianism.

Go back and read the drafts of our Constitution. Read the Federalist Papers. Study the works of the Founding fathers, understand the history of the world at the time they drafted our government's charter. Read the accounts of the Constitutional conventions and the editorials that accompanied them.

They didn't necessarily call it "Libertarianism" then but, it is clear that what we now call Libertarianism is what the intent was. A small, centralized government tasked with protecting the citizens in the most basic general sense and which gave over all other specific governance issues to individual States - with an assumption that those individual States would likewise, provide the least amount of government necessary to protect individual freedoms.

Modern-day revisionists would like to suggest that this was not the intent. That our system is intended to allow for massive, tax-funded, centralized government that is tasked with protection of the weak or unintelligent, provision of welfare and redistribution of wealth.

But that's just not true.

No matter how much people want to argue that it's a good idea or something we should be trying to do.

The system was not intended to have an income tax (indeed, it was literally FOUNDED on the ideal that there would be no income taxes!), to provide for massive socialistic, governmental services or for the redistribution of wealth through income or estate taxes. If a goal now is to have a huge central government for the purposes of providing all sorts of social services and redistribution of wealth, then that goal needs to be clearly articulated and understood and a system established to provide that.

Activist, left-wing liberal attempts to jam the round peg of af Libertarian governmental architecture into the square hole of socialist ideals are simply asking for trouble - some of which we already see a good deal of:

Tax rates approaching 50% (in aggregate, 35% Federal, alone), an un-Constitutional income tax that is propounded through a tax code that is thousands and thousands of pages of exceptions, exemptions, credits, etc., "pseudo-regulated" markets that haven't been neither truly free NOR truly regulated for about 100 years, massive governmental spending that is so large and opaque that virtually no one knows exactly what our national budget is or exactly how it's spent, etc., etc.

As I've said before, it is one discussion to even determine whether or not it is appropriate for anyone to tell someone else what they have to care about or fund. But even if we all agree that it is a worthy goal to fund and care for the less fortunate (or less capable or less motivated...), the LAST entity I would want in charge of that task and the proper running of the system and the spending of the money is our current U.S. government, which is a model of waste and self-serving, the likes of which the face of this planet has - literally - NEVER seen before.

Nick of course, will disagree...

Who best to do it then?

That's a good question.

And a full exploration of the issue kind of leads you back around to "Well, then, CAN it be done/should we even do it?"

It is very difficult to draw the line between what a) a Government SHOULD do and b) what a Government has the power TO do.

One suggestion - a Libertarian one - is to observe that: Since that line is ALWAYS going to be difficult to define, it is best to draw it as tightly around the Government and their authority, as possible. Thereby ensuring that any over-reaches by government (which necessarily WILL happen) are relatively small, in comparison.

I would say there are a lot of "over reaches" by the private sector. (Lobbying, Insurance, Wall Street, etc.). So, which is better? The system we have right now is failing.

I was speaking specifically of overreaches of AUTHORITY.

Insurance companies can't make you do anything, nor can Wall St. investment firms. They don't have any authority to force a particular individual or group of individuals to do anything.

Only government has that authority.

Only government can put you in jail, or send you to war, or take your money or your property and give you no legal recourse.

So, from that perspective, again, I'll take pretty much any private individual or institution's overreaching over the government's, any day.



People have got to stop simply observing that "the system is failing." That, a 15 year old can observe.

Doing something about it (other than simply screaming for change, or the first obvious short-term solution) requires really thinking and investigating WHY it is failing and if there are better solutions. That requires real education and study of basic governmental and political philosophy - from ALL sides - and an open and progressive mind.

Not just reading a bunch of biased propaganda written by people who already agree with what you think.

Totally agree... and that is the issue in that the Government is already bought many times over on both sides of the isle.
I beleive that They can over reach because they are protected to do so.. If that makes sense.

In a free market I believe it will work it self out but we are not living in that. The insurance companies etc. are protected because of their lobby... Who are they protected by?? again the government?? I really think that we agree on more than we think.


So, Can you honestly say that this is 100% because of JUST the Reps??

So my question is: Will the government do what is best for people or for itself?

In Colorado the state mandated that all companies of a certain size had to supply the top level insurance (gold) to all employees. Did the insurance companies and the government all work together?? No, they slammed every one and the government did nothing about it because the state made it mandatory. It cost them over $30k a month to supply insurance for staff of 20 or so people. Needlesstosay, it killed them.

I agree with knife that we have to stop throwing dirt at each other and concentrate on the issues and how to fix it. neither you nor I are the enemy no matter how much mr linguistics above wants to make it into that.

At least Obama said today that Canada's form of Health Care wont work here which i do agree with. even if I dont agree with every thing he is saying I do like the tone that he has set and I believe should be modeled here. if not its just a jr high pissing match..

Since you've obviously done all that, what is the best solution in your opinion?

First, I'd like to commend Knife for restraining himself and presenting a serious argument rather than just picking through the words and arguing silly semantics.

There's too much here to cover everything, so let me pick and choose.

First, let me explain what I mean about tracing the current mess back to Ronald Reagan.

Before him the tax rates at the top margin were really high, therefore the money stayed in corporations, who built cities and invested it in the future. Then he came along and cut those taxes under the ideological "free market" banner that it would make everyone richer (trickle down economics - Arthur Laffeur, etc.). That didn't even last his reign, but the damage was done: the money went to the CEO class, who started acting in their own short term interest and took all the money themselves (hence the Mediterranean Mini-Mansion). Today these people make 350x what their workers make on average, vs. 16x before. We've had several bouts of tax cutting at the top.

(Obama is fully aware of this, which is what was behind his "redistributing the wealth" gaffe during the campaign. He made a mistake and let the truth out.)

Companies then started existing to serve the CEO class rather than the other way around. They started acting in the short term, and we all know where that's lead us. What did these people do to preserve their perches? Hire lobbyists to deregulate everything, and the lobbyists have had a revolving door between the government and the industries they're trying to regulate. So we have a government of, by, and for the lobbyists.

Democrats have been going along with a lot of that - it's not all Republicans - but it's a Republican phenomenon. And this whole system has been tried and failed.

It's not that capitalism is bad, by the way, or that the free market is a bad thing. The point is that a lot of things - such as medical insurance - should not be for profit...never mind that medicine has nothing to do with a free market, or for that matter that in most cases there's no such thing.

The reason I said before that free markets have nothing to do with political freedom - contrary to the conservative PR hype - is that they don't. Soviet-style Communism and Socialism were tied together, but for example Chile under Pinochet had a "free market" system and he was a horrible dictator; some of the northern European countries have had very socialized economies yet the people were always free.

I don't have time for a lengthy sermon on why strict libertarianism is not the thing for today. Nor is strict anythingism, for that matter, but the fact that Big Government just saved us from going into another Great Depression shows how bad a time this is to be a libertarian. By coincidence there was a really good editorial about this in the LA Times about this a couple of days ago:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-ellis9-2009aug09,0,3614997.story

One comment: today's world is way too complicated not to have taxes or to leave everything to its own devices. We need forward-thinking leadership, and lots of things need to be socialized. Taxation is not stealing, because everyone lives in the same economy; rich people get rich in the same economy poor people live in.

We need public, socialized communist pinko health insurance badly.

"Rich people get rich in the same economy poor people live in".

Interesting perspective, and true. Hate to bring up the word "karma" in which says, everyone is responsible for the situations they find themselves in.

What bothers me is the total lack of any compassion of the really well off to help people who are suffering. There are a few who do.

Having witnessed my fathers death, holding his hand as he died, feeling it go cold, I can tell you the only thing that really matters in life is what you have done for other people who could use the help. If I were filthy rich, I would build sports centers in the inner cities were kids could turn their lives around by a mentor.

I would die knowing I helped someone and my life ment something. I could be at peace. The insaine greed that is driving our worlds economy is an illusion.

It boils down to preperation for death. We are all going to die. We well all face that moment of truth, reguardless of religious perspective. Most live their lives ignoring death as some strange occurance.

If those in power could wrap their heads around the reality of life, they might act differently. Personally, I think Bush/Cheney well face a hell within as they pass away for the extreme suffering they have caused.

No. I haven't "done" that. I certainly haven't finished, that's for sure. It's a very complex set of issues.

As far as I can tell, no one ideology has "the" answer.

-Current liberal political philosophy is based on an assumption that "less fortunate" people NEED to be helped and MUST BE helped - as well as an assumption that we should enlist government to enforce that type of thing.

-Current conservative thinking pursues less government and regulation and assumes that supposed "free markets" will be self-regulating and will (eventually?) benefit everyone, through increased productivity and economic growth.

-Libertarian philosophy suggest that government will ALWAYS usurp power, so we need very limited government (but I can't see how you get there from anarchy, if ALL government - no matter how small - will always usurp power).

So, none of the major, current political philosophies in the U.S. seem to be "the" answer.

Generally, I think less government is better. I have a general distrust of government, based not on some non-specific paranoia, but on what I actually see, every day. The constant special interests lobbying (by and for BOTH Democrats and Republicans). Generally uninformed and bad decision-making by our leaders (again BOTH Republican and Democrats) and a system that creates "professional politicians" who's first and foremost job is to stay in office, as opposed doing the right thing for the country, or even their local constituency.

Unlike Nick, I don't think the proper answer to ANY problem is to hand it over to the government for fixing. I can't think of a single government program that actually resulted in the eradication of the problem it was intended to address, at least not without dire ancillary fallout.

That makes me more conservative/libertarian than liberal, in general. But really, I'm none of them.

It is clear that a lot of our problems can be traced to an inactive populace. Our system is predicated on a very informed and involved populace staying vigilant and controlling the government. But over the last 200 years, our citizenship has gotten increasingly less well-informed and less active, while government has expanded and actually endeavored to keep the general populace uninformed.

I'm not sure what the answer is but, here's some specific suggestions (as opposed to large-scale philosophical recommendations):

1: Impose term limits on all politicians, to ensure that we don't get career politicians. Maybe 6 or 8 years or so. Enough time to learn the job but not enough time to become beholden to it.

2: True campaign finance reform:

a) Limits (that are actually adhered to) on all campaign donations - private and corporate. No PACS, spousal co-donors and other loopholes. You can only raise "$X" from "Y # of people" - and that's it.

b) Completely equal - and 100% free - air time to all candidates. No ability to buy more ads or editorial time beyond what the FCC - which is supposed to control the "public airwaves" and not allow them to be sold to the highest bidder - grants to ALL legitimate candidates.

3: Generally less centralized government.

a) Allow the individual States to govern themselves without completely B.S. central control over things like Federal highway and school funding, inter-State commerce, etc.

b) More public influence and involvement in more local, day-to-day politics.

c) (Possibly) breaking up the United States into smaller units. Our current system was put in place when the country was a mere fraction of the size it is now. The United States is a huge nation now, with extremely disparate segments. Wildy varying geographic, cultural, economic, meterological, etc., etc., segments all supposed to get along and engage in mutual government. It's almost (?) impossible to make this many different people with such different experiences and lifestyles and beliefs agree on anything, much less something as fundamental as the direction of the Country.

Those are some ideas ( that will NEVER come to fruition, BTW) but, I don't claim to know what the solution is.

Not by a long shot.

Well, I could launch into an entire rebuttal of Nick's post up there but, in the interests of not having Nick retract his commendation, Nick?

I'm honestly asking you to provide real, factual support for several of the things you have offered up here as if they are just "so," like some type of undeniable fact.

I'm not "harassing" you or whatever. I'm asking you to go beyond simply asserting things like "lobbying is a Reagan-era Republican phenomenon" "medical insurance should not be for profit" and the like.

I'm asking you to support those statements with actual evidence and facts (before I simply respond to each of them, only to have you then say I'm "just picking through your words and arguing silly semantics.")

Knife,

You make some good points. However, as far as term limits go, that is controlled by the voters. A bad politician is bad no matter how many years he or she holds office. Intelligent voters are the best controllers of term limits.

How about limiting the length of campaigning to 2 months before an election. Certainly any candidate can make his or her point in 60 days.

If there are "debates", allow all candidates to participate.

Obviously change the tax system to a consumption tax rather than one which taxes production and more importantly, do not allow the government to operate outside of its available money.

I would suggest time limits on legislation (20 years comes to mind). If a law or program is good, let the next generation vote to continue it, if it is bad, let them modify it or let it die.

There are legitimate functions of government and the US government has gone way beyond their real function. While some may consider it progress, it is really at the cost of precious freedom.

Zrocs, the problem is that after many years in the public eye, name recognition gets in the way of a thoughtful and objective voting process. And after some time it becomes an institution... e.g., Kennedy, Byrd, Thurmond... An 8-year term should be it.

The problem then is with the voters. When the voting process becomes a contest of who will provide more government (less freedom) disguised as security, then the voters are to blame. If a politician is doing a great job (and there is at least one who does), why punish him with term limits.

If voters had the intelligence and guts to elect officials who would really follow Liberterian like philosophy, the other parties would quickly learn and follow.

Take a minute and read the Declaration of Independence. Interesting concepts in that document.

No time to write much, Knife, but medical insurance not being for profit...well, depending on what reports you read (the reference I have is two Harvard medical economists) we waste about $350 billion a year - about 2% of GDP - that we wouldn't spend if we had universal health insurance. Insurance company risk evaluation is a huge waste and a drain on the system.

It's not that I have anything against anyone making a profit, it's that it serves no public good in this case. Not everything should be for profit.

And I'm not saying lobbying is a Reagan-era phenomenon, I'm saying that his policies of cutting taxes at the top margin led to the rise of the CEO class that hires the ruling lobbyists we have now. It's not that he intended that, but it was a consequence. Read James K. Galbraith's "Predator State" if you want to know where I learned about this; it's an eye-opening book. Believe me, I'm not pulling it out of my ass.


Term limits: to me that's not the issue. What we really need is campaign finance reform, in fact we need to put severe limits on the amount of money that can be spent on a campaign. The need for campaign money to get re-elected is an incredible corrupting influence. I say no political advertising on public airwaves should be allowed.

Actually, this is a great idea. How about each candidate has equal time on PBS stations. No commercial or cable station allowed to carry any political advertising (even from PACs). Combine this with a 2 month campaign limit and true reform is at hand.

holy sh*t i agree!

Hummmm Drummmm Soooo Whhattt..??

I think we are being manipulated in to these huge divisions.

There are folks on the left and right who make big bucks by selling us their self righteous anger.
In fact their very survival depends upon sharply dividing us.
We buy in to their rage and take it on. (whether or not it has any basis in truth or logic)
Such a waste of energy.

The truth is, we are all in the same boat. (and we're more alike than they want us to believe)
Particularly musicians and audio pros.
I don't know about you, but I'm a self employed musician/audio guy.
I buy my own health insurance and it is going up steeply every year.
It is chewing up more and more of my income.
I don't know the solution, but I think some remedy is necessary.

I want to be sure my family is protected in the event of major illness.
I'm getting pushed to the limits.

Do most of you have great coverage at a reasonable price?
Am I missing something here?

Not that I'm aware of.
My insurance went up 25% this year. My wife and I had to change to a pretty weak plan just so we could afford the payments.
Now we have no Rx coverage, our deductible is up to 2500 each, we're only allowed 4 office visits annually (though we usually only need 1) and we're still paying about one DA7 a month (700 bucks).

Have you checked into BlueCross/BlueShield?

Their rates are still better than that. For a 1K deductible I pay something like 260/month. Decent coverage (no office limits/full drug coverage)

I did and I agree!




Amen,



Amen,



And very much Amen!

I'd been staying away from this, but I can't any longer....

We are like the Germans, in Germany during WWII, they thought all was fine there and everywhere else, talk about heads in the sand - SHEESH!

We have an almost complete version of the Declaration of Independance, I say that because of the two parts that were left out. One being a cap on interest (at .003 %). The other dealing with property rights, can't remember exactly how it went, but anyone can look it up, I should, again Re afferming the whole Declaration is how 'I' think the declaration should be modified, not anyway the politisions or natzis in power in 'our' state and house of rep's and congress. I mean all of them, maybe even Ron Paul. And if Kisinger wants old people to just go to the death camps, I think he should lead the way - not you Josepf...

If we let the insurance bill through, I'll bet in a month our guns will be taken away, forcibly and then we will be forced to take the death vacines, all three of them and the rest will be history, America gone.

If we don't stand up right now it is over.

If we don't clear this up, it is over.

If we let it go, were dead. At least half the population is. And who would want to be left anyway?

We gave or lifes to the government via social security with a guarnte of being taken care of. The governments idea of taking care of us is to kill off enough of us so that the rest can be controlled easily. That is why there is a no big deal over 'Boomers" qualifying for SS, they know we'll be dead by then.

Dr.s have bought the program hook, line and sinker, they now are the agents of death via medicare and qualifying the recipiants of it. Go to the docter, are you crazy?????

Medical plan? are you crazy? The plan is to kill you, not fix you AND not let you get away with ANY of your savings.

Come on sheeple, wake up now!

Yes .. and then men will be forced to marry multiple sheep and food will be replaced by aborted fetuses and ... come on ... what other scare tactics can you come up with?

No one is buying this crap. The insurance industry is rightfully running scared. Good. Good riddance.

You don't have guns, right yng? Please say no...

Take heed, yng:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/12/bernie-madoff-and-the-birthers/

Vintage moron Krugman

Weather I don't or do is not as important as the fed thinking that all born here keep their first and second amendments in tact. I have gmail and hotmail accounts, it blows my mind to see what Gmail puts up next to the emails, most of the time it's so far off, it's funny, some of the time, it frightens me.

I think every public forum should include something like this in every post:
Thats the bomb dude, he's selling the dope Poison CD, it will be on the airplane before he hits LA, he knows some of the LA Guns, he's atomic.
But that is just me....
As for the link,
I've meet/been with then gov. and ex gov. Cllinton, many times over a few years and played in his brothers club, are you going to try to convince me he is a good guy? Sincker, snicker, did you hear his wifes rant about channeling him? Now thats funny and frightening at the same time.

No matter how I answered that question, it would not matter, I will be in the first round up, I know that - KRIPES! The real question is wether I'll get on the bus to the detention center or will they let me go, or dispatched right there. My papers say that I should be able to pass threw the gate.

Actually it's vintage right on the money Krugman. And I fear that it's applicable here.

yng, whether or not you have a gun is very important. I'm quite concerned about you.

Thank you
I am quite concerned about the people around me also.
So why would it matter if I do or don't? Geek goes postal or fool if ya don't? What's your concern?

I have a problem with all public lobbiests, Krugman and those he names in the article.
So you think Cllinton and Obama are good guys? And the federal reserve is a government agency?

Who will take my guns away? Who is going to force me to take 3 death "vaccines"? I am interested in how you came to this conclusion.

There is no conclusion, this is the kind of moronic mentality that has gotton us U.S. into the mess we are in now. Most likely voted for Bush twice. Sorry, I have no tolerance for this kind of stupidity. Time people with common sense stand up to these idiots before they have a chance to bring the country to it's knees, like they have done.

But which is COMMON sense?? Yours or his?

Jeff? Hello?

I'm speculating, of course, but the news we get sure points that direction. I would love to be wrong and I may be, to some extent.

Sean, your on the road, did you see any of the Katrina/Rita mess out there? I did and 'tried' to give money to some of the people in the camps, two actually, both times I/we were turned away saying that we could be put in the incampment if we do not leave right away, chilling, really, holding people against their will and thretning the others who only wanted to help - a little...

I know that directly does not address your question, though I know I'm going the oppisite direction the government wants me to from now on, it is my/our only hope. If you read the stats on our kids vaccines, you see a very high rate of negitave reactions to them and now there are way more shots than we got. If you believe either party line, I'm not going to convince you anything, I used to be that way, not anymore just from my run ins with the government, they will lie to you till they are blue in the face, all the time trying new ways to screw you. Na, I have given up on them and the ones who support them. And now Nancy P. is saying for us to rat on our neighbor? How natzi party line is that?

So you think everything is good also? Have you heard anything about other countries already taking 'ameros'? I have.

And what about three birth certificates? I only have one. No one has said that there is only one for him, I wounder why? Could it be that to many others have seen more than one? The first one he produced, or his management team, clearly had his sisters name on it first, I've seen two on the net. Does that seem right to any of us? Should it?

Do you have any police friends? Ask them if they have been told that they 'might' be relocated without their family, but their family will be put in safe housing? Does that sound like the government is going to hold their family so the officer will do what he is told to do, like taking your guns away from you because that guy is scared that they might harm his family, god knows where they might be and he is in a differant state. I'm hearing it from my state patrol friends and they are scared. I've played at bohemien groove 2nd week in July gatherings, I know there is a hidden adjenda and most of us are not the lucky ones.

Dude, he is already President, get a life. Why now, why not before the election? Why try to tare down what he/we are trying to repair?

If you were on the sinking Titanic, most likely you and people like you would be complaining about the Captian not being qualified to command the ship, instead of finding a way to save peoples lives. That's you dude! That's you! Get a life!

Nothing like the comforting feeling of knowing we're in good hands.

Yes, how I pine away for the good old days of Saint Ronald...

well at least that made me laugh Nick..

There is no common sense any more... there is only my sense and your sense and his and her sense but for the sake of all that is good (according to you or I) I fear there is any thing but COMMON.

Truth is now something you and I get to make up what is true for ourselves and out politicians have reached the point where leaders of ancient civilizations have gone before us. No One believes any one any more..

Didn't the Bush administration put enough fear in everybody? Bin Laden, hijackers, anthrax, etc. I never imagined that people could ever be more scared than after 9/11. But here we are. Normally rational people are frightened by almost everything now. Ferchrissakes, the "threat level is currently orange" in every airport I'm in. What does that mean? Rat on our neighbor? They are X-Raying gramma's flip flops. Sheesh. Did Obama set this up?

It would be good for you to do some research into every one of your fears and see for yourself if they are founded on truth before you scare yourself into some bad decisions based on pure speculation and hearsay. Kinda like the guys that moved to Montana for the 2000 New Year end of the world myth. A lot of wasted energy on nothing.

BTW, If you are happy with the healthcare and insurance situation the way it is, keep paying your premiums. I, however, am not, and am looking forward to changing it. I go to Europe, and the folks there are happy with the gov't support. Here's an interesting article in today's news about the UK system:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32398952/ns/world_news-europe/

yo man, u conservs caint resist, can u? u f*k up everything 8 years and contribute nothing. u need politic/sport. man u f*k up so bad. get yer heads outta yer asses. u got uz into the wurst financial mess in our history, remembur? wat wuz the debt prior to bushbrain? & now u luv little miss bush lite - not more brains, more stupidity.

Obviously the Bush era "no child left behind" worked well for you. Amazing command of the English language...

Hilarious!

maybe so, but you still support the most outmoded, pathetic and divisive political party in the past 50 years

"What confuses me is that if ignorance is bliss, why are these people so angry?"

— Len Kaminsky

About the healthcare shriekers, on Paul Krugman's blog on NYTimes.com (the one Josef likes so much)

I do not have a health plan and do not want one, why would I want to plan on my demise? I love living, not dying or being sick. I do look into a lot of things before I say a word about any of them.

I feel we are seeing what the turn of the century sientests called Quantom, we will find what were looking for, thats why blind tests were developed - the ones putting on the test were effecting the outcome.

Jeremy, I do not agree with you on our prez. I see him doing nothing he said and doing at least as bad of things bush did. Your extrapolation is very flawed, assumming is not a very good way to do that. We all could assume a lot from your posts too. I do not think that will help anything.

I, for one, have an incredable life, thank you. It might seem slow to some, but I go foreward every day leading a charmed life, really
And am probabbly the happest and calmest guy you may ever meet, are you happy? Calm?

I say to all, get healthy, decline the shots by vertue of religous beliefs by not taking anything that is food or medicine that needs a patent, only two states do not allow those exceptions. Become a reverend for a buck.... Get a passport from another country.

I don't understand how anybody out on the road right now can't see how much our country has gone natzi, it is like going to europe or middle east, not like it was ten, twenty years ago, when we were free, well, more free.

St. ronnie????? now thats a joke, right?

Sounds like you already have your death wish then. Are you superhuman and will NEVER get sick? Have you not realized even a minor injury these days will cost thousands in medical costs - which of course are HIGHER if you don't have insurance?

Pat - No offense but this is exactly the problem with the Health Care System we have today. Unless everyone participates, we can't properly insure everyone. And, think about it, everyone needs health care services. If you don't go to the doctor for regular checkups then you risk early detection of a potential health care problem that could cost you and system more money and keeps premiums high. How can we call ourselves a civilized society if we don't take care of our sick? Think of all the things we benefit from everyday because at some point we deemed them necessary for the public good. These include, fire and police, roads and bridges, public schools, public librarys, museums, parks, prisons etc. We need to take it one step further and say, as a country, nobody who is truly sick should have to become financially destitute as a result.

The current privately insured system has become an overwhelming and unsustainable burden on employers and employees. It's essential we cover everybody nationally. There's no reason not to do it.

Usually I wont respond any longer to your posts but I have to say to this in response.

For those of us that are "Small government" Id like to point out that I dont beleive any one here has been promoting the Repubs at all. In the same way that Nick says All are far too conservative even in the Dems for him, the Repubs do not represent either. They are just as bought as the rest..
So, if you are going to make statements as to whom supports who, please have an understanding before you speak to the issue.

Justin,

What is going to change? Doctors working for less money? Nurses working for less money? How is the government going to "fix" the problem with out making it cost more than it already does? Is it going to do so by adding a costly layer of governmental red tape bureaucracy?

Many governments have already cut services such as police, schools, libraries, prisons and infrastructure maintainance because funding is not available (or wasted on other worthless crap). If the solution for healthcare is to raise taxes then where is the savings?



Why?

From you picture, you appear to be a healthy individual. Perhaps on the upper end of the government determined weight to height statics. You want to be healthy? Drop the weight, quit smoking, quit drinking, eat only properly assigned foods. Otherwise, according to your logic, you are costing the system money and keeping premiums high. What is your calorie footprint?

BTW, I am not picking on you personally. I am a pretty large individual myself. I am just expressing reservations about giving the government control of freedoms.

zrocks, the point is not to add red tape bureaucracy but to provide a non-profit alternative. As I wrote above:

"depending on what reports you read (the reference I have is two Harvard medical economists) we waste about $350 billion a year - about 2% of GDP - that we wouldn't spend if we had universal health insurance. Insurance company risk evaluation is a huge waste and a drain on the system.

It's not that I have anything against anyone making a profit, it's that it serves no public good in this case. Not everything should be for profit."



Now, ideally I'd be in favor of a single payer system - meaning the insurance companies are gone - because I don't believe that medical insurance needs to make a profit. But that's not possible politically, so the next best thing is a public option to force the price down and change the game.

Note that this is not socialized medicine - as they have in the UK for example - because the doctors don't get paid by the government. It's a national health insurance program.

So changing the way healthcare is financed is the central part of it. There's a lot more to the proposal, of course, including preventative medicine. Given that something like 16% (if I remember right) of our healthcare expenses are related to what and how much we eat - obesity, diabetes, congestive heart disease - that seems like a great move.

Obviously we all make choices about our health. Some are not good, over-eating, smoking, drinking, taking risks (e.g. Evel Knievel). But to suggest that health care is the problem of the individual and a private matter is to ignore reality. I don't have any children, yet I pay taxes so other people's children can get an education. I've never had a serious car accident, yet I pay into an insurance system that pays salaries and cover's other people that do - it's the law that I have insurance. I don't personally use the public library much (my wife does), yet I pay taxes to support it. I've never had a fire in my house, yet I pay the firemen who put out other people's fires. Is this socialism? Tell me how health care is any different? We need to cover everybody. We need a national health care system and we need it now.

Of course it's socialism! But one dare not call it that or the crazies will shriek.

What do you think - men with knives are going to come snatch your plate?

fair enough

[/quote]

brilliant and perfectly put

Justin, I will not join up and I do not get sick - why would any sane person want to wish for that???? Or even more insane, plan for it????? I wonder if you'll get what you wish for???

30 years ago I was told by docters that in five years I'd be dead, terminal they said, I did not believe them and I'm still here. The last time I gave my Corvette flying lessons I was 40 feet over a service road as the vett went threw the guard rail. As I acknoledged that turning point in my life, I thought how great life was, my life and how I was excited to see the next, the car pulled itself back on to the road and finished the 360. That pointed out to me that being conscious and in the moment has some advantages.

You guys can look for the free hand out, but there is not one from the fed, only hooks that bind you to them filled with empty promisses. Just like our new prez. did to us before the election and everyone else that got there before him, that I can think of.

So you guys go ahead and think that if you do this expariment one more time, it will have a good reaction. I say your insane thinking that it will be differant, you have seen it fail to many times and NOTHING is differant.

I was just sick in bed last week with the stomach flu. I am definately sane but didn't want it. Just got it. No insurance and definately no pay that week...Sucks....

Where has it failed, yng?

And I'd hate to see your teeth if you never go to a dentist.

Why are private insurance companies needed at all?

"Why are private insurance companies needed at all?"

Competition?

You guys... I am so glad I'm not reading this drivel
(-NOUN; childish, silly, or meaningless talk or thinking; nonsense; twaddle)
on a daily basis. Get a life... all of you!

(yes I added the definition of 'drivel' above for those that wouldn't know what it meant, even though you're living in it!)

ynghermes... I'm glad you're here.

Eric, It's great after-hours fun.

Nick, Bet I have more of my teeth than you do, no root cannals and all of them are still there.

But a good point though. You know they were the first ones to poison us. The ancient texts all say not to put metal into our bodies, I'm sure mecury is even worse.

Where has what failed? AMA? Every time a docter kills another patient for whatever reason, and there are many reasons. I'd say that low self estiem is what gives docters the oppertunity to take advantage of their patience. If we listen to our body, it will tell us when we need something. Since I started taking collidial silver, I've been sick like three times in over 20 years, going around the world and touring around the states and on planes. But I also use garlic, like the Egyptions and Romans/Greeks, as close to an ounce as possable a day without the green (that is where the smell comes from), I also take the green root out. But no GMO or patented things that could be eaten.

Sounds like lots of heads in the sand here. I still celibrate our differances, don't conform to me or my thoughts, but look to the mummies of the valley of kings, they all have all their teeth. We are the generation that let the dentist poison our teeth and got poisoned by floride. If you change your point of view, or how you look at it, you might see it a differant way - BUT YOU GOTTA DO THE WORK TO FIND OUT.

i will never get sik. never. and i will never die. oh yeah, and i wants a pony 4 my birfday.

dude, u have gotz to be kiddin.

kekziner, he'z 1 of yours.

"Competition?"

Where's the competition? Healthcare isn't a competitive situation.

For perspective, yng, my dad is a physician. Many, many people are still alive or living without hideous pain because of him. Medicine has come a long way in the past 2000 years.

By the way I have all my teeth too, in fact I've only had three cavities in my life - all in one tooth (which probably had a problem with the enamel). That's mostly genetic, but partly because I have regular prophylactic tooth cleanings.

And went down hill really fast in the last 70.
My grandmother had all her teeth when she died at 102, no cavities, never went to a dentist, what is your point there? If you eat crap you need to get your teeth cleaned? How the F did we live before AMA? How did we get to the point where we 'think' we need a docter? I never read anything about Moses needing a docter and he is the oldest person that we know of, oh yea, he didn't get imune shots, didnt use a dentist - were there dentists then? and fast food ment that someone made something 'natural' for them.

And just for the record, please do not worry about me Seems you have way more things that you need to worry about you... With all the patented things I'm sure you consume from your forced conformity from the drug companies your dad 'had' to deal with to keep his practice.

I will not worry about you either, for two reasons, why would I want to project negitavity to you in the first place and seems like you have already decided your path, like I have - they are way differant.

u r an idiot. go look up the average life expectancy of a person in 1930 (59.7 years) and in 2005 (77.8 years) and then give me more of your lunatic theories.

"I don't want the government meddling in your health care, but I don't want the insurance companies meddling in your healthcare, either... The current system works much better for the insurance companies than it does for the American people." Barack Obama, 5 minutes ago.

Great line, Sean.

And Doggin' is absolutely right. People who are anti-medicine are...well, to each his own. I just hope yng gets treated when he gets and infectious disease rather than spreading it around.

My reply was about competition among the insurance companies, not about the health care per se.

For the last 12 years I have the Harvard Pilgrim Health Care, and I love it. And if one day I'd for whatever reason decided to drop it, I have another dozen companies to choose from. How would I do that in a single-payer system?

Mike, are you not capable to get your points across without resorting to insults and name calling?

Ok my khunt, my other grandmother was only 92. their husbands were 49 and 60, I think you gotta put the gender facter into that. my dad was 95.5, mom was 86, after 16 years of paraplegic from a stroke. I don;t care what the stats are, the fringes are very differant and people actually effect that. Oh yea, dad was born in 1913, should he have died when he was like 50 then? So was he like twice the average?

But while your trying to put words into my mouth you might want to put a stick up there and try to strech that sfincter a bit, did I spell that so you could understad it? Because you sound very anal for all the attempted hip talk. They may be theories to you coming from the moon, my hip talking brotha, but quantom field says they are real and that is good enough for me. Do you have a brain other than party line and vanilla wafer W/chocklet cream filling? I mean, can you think out of the box? A quantom term

Having an insurance policy is hardly "planning" to get sick. It's realizing the odds are that somewhere, sometime we all do. It's wonderful that you've been so healthy, up till now. I'd contend that there's a sizable component of luck that you've had, in addition to the advantage of taking good care of yourself. That can change in an instant. No matter how much garlic you eat, and you could suddenly find yourself bankrupt or destitute if you get ill without insurance. All the garlic and good clean living in the world would not have fixed my hernia, or set my parents broken bones when they fell.

Nobody's looking for a free handout here. With 50 million uninsured and another 120 million hanging on by their teeth, we need a fix for badly broken system.

"How would I do that in a single-payer system?"

You'd be able to get supplemental insurance. But the fact remains that a single-payer system isn't going to happen, in fact today it looks like Obama is buckling under on even a public option.

This is an example of "democracy" really sucking. Propaganda lies really do work.

Don't despair Nick, I'm sure eventually all the bad in our system will get weeded out one way or the other.

Sorry to see all those fires again in your neighborhood.

Thanks. Actually the fires are well north of here (unless there are new ones I don't know about).

http://www.slate.com/id/2161736/

The question shouldn't be whether or not we should have universal healthcare. I think most people (not including ynghermes of course) would welcome universal health insurance IF it were made extremely affordable and all the inefficiencies were taken out of the system. Some of these inefficiencies are probably actually a result of a for-profit system. For-profit isn't always a good thing no matter what anybody says. Instead of spending time arguing the merits of having universal healthcare, we should be discussing how we can make it work.

Actually I think we are arguing about whether it should be for profit, EWF. I've mentioned that - and how much money it costs for it to be for profit - at least twice in this thread!

Yeah, I've seen what you've written (which I agree with) but had just been staying on the sidelines. I was referring a bit more toward the national debate we're having right now about healthcare and these town hall meetings where so many people seem to be spooked about the idea of nationalized healthcare. I just heard on the news the other day some audio from a town hall meeting with Arlen Specter where some woman brings up her unsubstantiated fears of us turning into Russia and how universal healthcare is just the beginning of socialism for us. It's amazing to me how so many people can become unhinged at the mention of "socialism." We're not talking about socializing the whole country, but to hear some of these people you'd think we were still in the middle of the Cold War and the return of Mccarthyism.

I'm officially disgusted, appalled and depressed over the way all this has come down.

Misinformation, misdirection and out right lies used to block any real debate.

I was hoping that after 8 years of idiocy the pendulum would swing back towards rationality for awhile.

Maybe it's no longer a pendulum but an unstoppable slide into hell.

I'm checking out.

Even the President of the United States of America cannot beat down greed, especially while trying to be nice about it. That's one sickness that will never be cured. It's the Golden Rule: "He with the most gold wins".

Then again, maybe a public healthcare option really was a very scary, bad idea. For civilians.

"Misinformation, misdirection and out right lies used to block any real debate"

No no, it's "freedom of speech" to prevent "a socialist government takeover of healthcare" with "death panels."

Have I by any chance mentioned that this is a mockery of democracy?

Exactly. It's amazing the sheer number of people who have no clue. You can't have effective debate and discussion when irrational fear and ignorance displace reason and an open mind.

I think you make a couple of very good points.

You pay for education so people can learn basic skills and become productive members of society. Personally, I think the government run schools are a waste of money and would rather have a voucher system. But that is not the issue.

Car insurance? Required by government because they do not feel the individual is capable of accepting the responsibility of driving (and the dangers of driving) without their help. Shouldn't it be based on the driver rather than the number of cars I own? I can only drive one at a time. But that is not the issue.

Fire departments? When I lived in a rural area, we had a volunteer fire department. No government money was available so the community built the fire house, bought the truck, practiced on their own time. Great way to actually build a community. Not the issue.

The issue is what is government's function? We will disagree because I believe in freedom and equality.

Look at 2 examples. Social Security. Costs are out of control and the system is on the verge of running out of funds. They already take over 15% of your pay check now. Is there some sort of individual account with your name on it? No! The SS tax money is placed in the general fund. That's why it is broke. I do not trust the government to handle more taxation. SS is a government fraud to increase revenue for the government to spend somewhere else.

Second example addresses private vs Public. The post office. Fedex, DHL, UPS all deliver stuff more efficiently than the post office does. Why? Because they are not bloated bureacracies. The private sector companies make a profit, share the profit with it's stockholders. The post office is poorly managed (with huge bonuses give to management for do a poor job) but if it needs more money, the government just gives it more.

Let me sum it up:

Health Care
1)Not a function of government (consumer protection IS a function but somehow elected officials help the HMOs before the people who voted for them)

2)Could have post office type management. In other words - poor, wasteful and when you consider health care this becomes dangerous.

3)With the program comes new taxation and the potential for fraud along the lines of Social Security.

$.02

Zrocks,



No, we disagree because we've formed different opinions over the course of our lives.

"We will disagree because I believe in freedom and equality"

No, we disagree because we've formed different opinions over courses of our lives.

You have an irrational anti-government attitude that's at the heart of why our country is so divided. It's particularly prevalent in Red states among more unsophisticated people - with notable Blue state exceptions like Josef, who formed that attitude behind the Iron Curtain where it was appropriate - and for this country it sucks. What really gets my goat is the "freedom and equality" religious vomit, which is total inversion of reality since it has everything to do with the opposite.

The irony is that this is the absolute worst time to be libertarian, to the point that I almost feel sorry for these fools. Big Government action just averted another Great Depression - here and in other countries - yet these ridiculous people still go on believing the same crap as if nothing had happened.

Anyway, cynical stirring of that ridiculous attitude is behind the "government takeover of healthcare" lies- under the banner of "freedom of speech," as if all speech is equal - that have very likely defeated the best chance in our lifetimes for meaningful healthcare reform. And the very assholes who have swallowed that shit sandwich are the ones who would have benefited from it the most.

At least my mail continues to get delivered reliably every day.

With all due respect, freedom and equality are not opinions. Either you believe and practice freedom and equality or you do not. We probably share good intentions and a desire to help and lend a hand to our brothers and sisters but to do so at the cost of freedom and equality is wrong.

That's a false choice.

Nick, You don't know me from Adam. Yet somehow in the shallow political postings of this board you can analyze my brain and diagnose irrationality in my brain. You are amazing.




You sound just like a stereotypical Alabama bigot with your grouping of subhuman dogs from Red states.

My father is the source of my vision of freedom. He, like Josef, fled his home country as Communists Iron boots stamped out one freedom after another (and quite a few citizens). It was appropriate to defend freedom in that country and it is also appropriate to do so now in this country. Only a tyrant fears freedom.



Classic Nick. For you to call freedom and equality "religious vomit" shows your true political colors. I feel sorry for you.



Anytime is a great time to be a Liberterian.

Big government picked the pockets of and enslaved your grandchildren to "fix" a problem that they created by deviating from freedom and equality with their well meaning but misguided programs. Special interest groups benifitted and were well rewarded for bad management. Rather than admit that the original program was bad economics, they played politics and transferred the pain to future generations. Frankly, they should all be taken out behind the White House and shot for treason.



Slavery only benefits the enslavers. I would love to see Health Care reform. It is mostly with full government backing that the Insurance and programs are out of control. They are going to "fix" the problem by enslaving my great grandchildren. I have yet to hear a single detail about costs and what the program specifically does. Have you? I would love to see something better in place but so far that has not been forthcoming.

Glad you get your mail. I changed to electronic billing and electronic banking and would not mind having my junk mail delivered only 3 times a week.

Wrong. Gov't mandates auto insurance on a local level (not national) to limit liability of both the individual as well as the local gov't. You clearly don't understand that this is not an issue of personal freedom.



Wrong. Clearly again you have no grasp of the issue when you use the concept of shared cost benefit as an argument against shared cost benefit.



Wrong. The reason why Fedex and debatably DHL & UPS 'deliver stuff more efficiently' is not because they are not bloated bureacracies. It is because they haven't been mandated to deliver mail. If you saddled these private companies with the money-losing proposition of having to take a loss on each piece of mail they delivered, they'd be in the same same as the US Postal Service or worse.



Wrong. In spite of the fact that gov't non-intervention in the banking business clearly lead to the economic collapse this past October, you continue to argue that the private sector is better at self-policing then the gov't.

Seems to work just fine for elected officials and the military.



The post office delivers a letter from Florida to California for something like $.50. Mail comes to me at the same time every day. Works out great for me. If I want FedEx, I can choose to pay for it.



Like there's no corruption or fraud in the system we have now? Taxes? I thought the public option was supposed to collect premiums, just like private insurance.

If there was a clinic in town that was public and inexpensive, you bet a lot of folks that need healthcare and can't afford insurance would be there seeing doctors. Grandmas, mommies, babies. Now, it seems the only option available to them is the emergency room.

I was hoping a good, inexpensive plan was actually going to become available. I know a lot of people are suffering right now, and they can't afford health insurance. Maybe not you.

I've got a question for you (all). If someone has a family and can't afford the health insurance premiums offered by the private companies, what should they do? Self-pay-as-you-go is expensive, and emergency room visits must be paid for, or they will go to collections on ya.

"Big government picked the pockets of and enslaved your grandchildren to "fix" a problem that they created by deviating from freedom and equality with their well meaning but misguided programs."

Bullshit and hype. Also bullshit.


"Special interest groups benifitted and were well rewarded for bad management. Rather than admit that the original program was bad economics, they played politics and transferred the pain to future generations."

Bullshit and more hype.

The national debt was 125% of GDP around WWII - way more than it is now - yet in the following few decades the standard of living in this country rose like crazy and the debt as a percentage of GDP was paid way down.

Now, I have plenty of criticisms of the bailouts. But Big Government acted, and every economist I've heard agrees that it was because of that - flaws and all - that we're not in another Great Depression.

"I have not seen a government program that helps."

More bullshit, hype, lame ideology, bullshit, hype, and Ayn Rand droppings. That's just plain horseshit as well.

Everywhere you look there are government programs that help, from our infrastructure on down to Social Security, Medicare, public education (severe criticisms notwithstanding), veterans' programs, and on and on.

It must be the cold in MN that makes you like this.

"Nick, You don't know me from Adam. Yet somehow in the shallow political postings of this board you can analyze my brain and diagnose irrationality in my brain. You are amazing"

Thanks but it doesn't take great powers of insight to diagnose irrationality in your brain. For a start you're libertarian in ignorance of reality. But beyond that, saying everything government does is against freedom and equality, and government intervention to prevent another Great Depression is enslaving your grandchildren...that's at least irrational and possibly psychotic.

Or maybe just plain stupid.

amazing how insanely wrong about everything you are zcocks - and how pitiful that the taxes I pay in cali filter into that failure of a pisshole called minneapolis

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/17/potter.health.insurance/index.html?iref=newssearch

Like Nick said, some things shouldn't necessarily be for profit. Healthcare is probably one of them. A for-profit healthcare system invites corruption and makes a wager on our lives and health for the profit of insurance companies. Insurance companies should not be allowed to decide whether we receive care or not.

This is not the Wild West nor Colonial America anymore where you could and would expect government to take a hands off approach. If we are to consider ourselves a highly-civilized nation then we need to provide for something as basic as the health and well-being of all our citizens. We have too many people and some of our problems are too big and complicated to expect the private sector to be able to handle them efficiently. There is a time and place for the private sector and there's also a time and place for government. Rather than waste our time debating the merits of government-run organizations as they currently exist, we should be figuring out how to make them run better.

I have nothing against healthcare itself being for profit - within reason. It's health insurance that really shouldn't be. That's where all the money is wasted.

I don't begrudge a nurse who works 14-hour shifts overnight getting paid well, for example, or a specialist who doesn't start making money until he or she is 35 making an upper middle class living.

and Government involvement doesnt invite corruption?

thats the impetus (AP - the meaning of the word is driving force) of the difference here. One side doesn't trust government and the other side doesnt trust the private sector.

EWF wrote ...

Rather than waste our time debating the merits of government-run organizations as they currently exist, we should be figuring out how to make them run better.

agreed, but would add that its not just the governments issue.

Medical health insurance has not always been as it is - I think we have to see it in its historical context as well and why its needed.

SO then who???

WHo IS really making the money??


my nurse friends arnt.. and my doctor friends certainly arnt.. Its not as it used to be.

EWF,
In the wild west there wasn't an AMA yet, colonial America, we were under British control.????????????? How do those apply?

Now if your going to say Soverin or common law and 1913 income tax and social security, federal reserve - weasel the money away from us, by 'saying' they will take care of us if we give them trustieship over us, that would be way closer to the truth.

If anyone wants cheap med insurance, ya can't use the policy, just like car insurance, the more it is used the more it will be. Same with docters, the more we use them, the more they want to upgrade their pleasure boat or get a new BMW. Just like the building trade, no new houses, the prices for labor drop.

Actually, this one I have to correct you on.

As you know, one of my clients is in this business - the reason the junk mailers get reduced rates is because THEY must deliver the junk mail to the destinations distribution center. So, if a California (pisshole back at you) company wants to send junk mail to minneapolis, they must deliver the trays of mail, presorted by post office, to the distribution center in Minneapolis. They are paying that cost of transportation, therefore their reduced postage the USPS just has to cover the local delivery.

In reality, the junk mail actually subsidises OUR mail delivery (as cost reduction comes in quantity). The main reason their costs are going up so much is that the quantities are being drastically reduced - electronic billing / email / etc are killing the amount of mail they handle.

Of course, we disagree on just about every other issue, but this is the only one where I think it's a factual error as opposed to just a difference of opinions (even though yours, of course, is wrong

"WHo IS really making the money??"

Once again: THE MEDICAL INSURANCE COMPANIES! And it's the way they make money, which is the same as all insurance: by taking in more money than they pay out.

That's why a public health insurance program - Medicare for everyone - is so important. It doesn't make a profit, so it doesn't spend the money it takes to figure out how to deny care to people.

I hate YouTube links and I don't watch The Ed Show (even though I'm sure I agree with him, I resent it that our side puts on someone who looks like that ), but someone posted this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBi2hMK1G8Y

Joe,

Seen the junk mailer biz up close and personal. They do pre sort, not the post office. Usually done with a barcode reader, a 386 PC running some 1985 software that any first year programmer could write while wiping his ass.

You know local junk mailers use the airport facility.

In a time where government should aim toward cutting cost while offering a service, the Post Office is a dinosauer. Yet no one has the guts to demand modernization. This is a classic example of a good government program turning into rotten cottage cheese. Although Nick gets his mail every day at the appointed time, I do not. I get to meet my St Paul Neighbors and more often, my neighbors several blocks away in Minneapolis.

Delivery 3 day a week and everyone pays the same rate (even Congress).

How can I be wrong about the health care bill? It doesn't exist. How can my opinion be wrong? When I ask a question such as:

How much will I have to pay and what coverage do I get?

I get guys like Nick and the other putz with roadkill for brains, screaming venom.

Come on over with olguitar, we can hash it out like men over a cup of coffee then go throw eggs at the govenors mansion.

wow.. its a liberal Glenn Beck.. CAGE MATCH!! Let em go at it.

But seriously, they are doing the same thing as the other side in the same ways.
They start out by going after one guy because he makes huge bucks - just makes them look petty like all the rest of the talking heads

Ok Medicare for every one... which happens sooner or later anyway now.. but who pays for it?? Individuals?

My wife is on Medicare at 47 because of kidney failure. between that and Blue cross we eek by. We pay for it all. The difference in the bill is outrageous. The Money trading hands is a joke. The over all bill per month is over $30,000. The settled cost is $2000 and then Blue S pays $800 or so. But IF it wasnt the insurance company paying our part it would kill us.

The deregulation and loop holes are amazingly complicated.

SO who actually deregulated it?

Actually not anymore .. they have to get it all the way to the proper delivery distribution site now (BMC st paul, SCF Minneapolis, SCF minneapolis, sef waite park, etc.) They can't just dump it at the airports anymore. That's one of the things that keeps my client in business ... the junkers have to pay for pallets to each destination (of course, we can lift the pallets by hand, but the still pay the same rate as if it was 1 ton)

I don't really care if they cut saturdays, although I'm guessing that will put more people out of work.

Health care bill .. of course it exists - after all Palin say's it has death squads in it (that must have some real potent crack in Alaska - no wonder todd wants to suceed from the US)

The louder the health insurance industry screams about it, the more I know we need it. How absolutely corrupt they are, there can be no doubt. Of course they're screaming - look at the money they're taking in.

Joe,

I stand corrected.

I don't get my government bill information from Palin. From what I can see, everyone is screaming, no one is listening, details are non existent and you are an idiot unless you fall into lock step with one side or another.

Maybe its time to take over and get the facts instead of every one guessing. Where is Ross and his Charts? THe fear factor on each side is outta control.

Great idea. If the Democrats were smart..... HAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahaha sorry.

Though they are culpable in part it's actually more than just the insurers, Nick. The whole system is screwed. Doctors are rewarded monetarily by hospitals for the number of procedures they do and tests they order. There's no financial incentive to be conservative about it. Tons of unneeded and unhelpful treatments are administered all the time. Until doctors are rewarded by for the outcomes of their work instead of the quantity of it, I can't see costs coming down in a meaningful way.

Someone else had said that doctors aren't making a lot of money any more. That's only half true. General Practitioners get paid remarkably little by insurance companies and half to make up for it by giving patients 10 minutes of their time instead of an hour, or ordering lots of tests. There's no emphasis on preventive care because they can't afford to take the time. Specialists on the other hand make huge incomes these days. And while it's true they went to school longer and should make somewhat more, the gap between the salaries is immense.

Healthcare for profit does NOT work. There's overwhelming proof of it now.

Jeff, so sorry about your wife's condition. My father is a dialysis patient and it's no walk in the park. I hope she does well.
.

I never implied freedom or equality was an opinion.
I believe in them whole heartedly.
I just disagree with your OPINION of how best to handle this health care situation.

I find your implication that if I disagree with you then I don't cherish freedom insulting, infantile and non-sequitur.

The two things have nothing in common.

"everyone is screaming, no one is listening, details are non existent and you are an idiot unless you fall into lock step with one side or another."

This is the effect of right-wing propaganda. No. You are "an idiot" unless you are in favor of healthcare reform *with a public option*. There are not two reasonable sides, there's one side with a debate over how to do it and another side of screaming morons who have been manipulated by insurance companies. (Strictly speaking the insurance companies not "idiots," they just want to continue lining their pockets.)

And this is an abuse of democracy, not democracy in action. It's much harder to do something constructive than it is to shout it down or destroy it. And just because there are two sides doesn't mean that they're both equal. This is why we have a divided country: the right is totally wrong about every last issue. You can see it in this thread, we saw it for eight years under Bush 2 and before that under Reagan.

Arguing points of view, especially simplistic ones (as all conservative ones are) is easy. I've even heard liberals against the Iraq war being called "negative" - we're going in there and killing people and they're so negative about it! We're haters because we don't want a war for oil!

So zrocks, go here and read the bill that's gone through House committees - not the final one, but this is what the debate is over - if you think the details aren't there:

http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf

Dan - no question, there's more to it than insurance. But the place to focus is insurance, and without that the whole house of cards falls down.

Jeff - Ed is absolutely not a liberal Glen Beck, just as Keith Olberman isn't a liberal Bill O'Reilly. Olberman is arrogant and annoying, but what he says is almost always right even if it is over the top. It's impossible for someone to come up with liberal things to say that are totally inflammatory and jerky 100% of the time, because reality intrudes; that is only the domain of the right. Ed only looks like a conservative talk show asshole.

On the island of Kobey Japan, there life expectancy is way over the world average with no AMA. They smoke and do lots of AMA considered bad things, how is that possable without dental care and american type docters? What about the Amish? They seem to be doing quite well without electrisity and whatever medical machine that uses it.

Any time we give our soverinity to some one else were going to get screwed..... Forcing EVERYONE into that is wrong and non of us will like it.....

We have to get back to taking responsibility for ourselves.

If you want to plan on falling apart at a certain point in your future, I have no problem with that, I am sure you will get your wish.

Did anyone here like being a dependant? I didn't, I considered emancapation at 14 making as much money as my dad then a week and paying for my private schooling, my choice.

Getting pants, shoes, shirts and just general stuff from my, very hip, mom most of the time was off my mark. I had 'my' own ideas, she had good intentions, but still off the mark.

So you want me to rely on a stranger??????? NO WAY. I rely on me....

Then I misinterpreted your comment. My apologies.

As far as health care reform, I am for waiting to see the details of the legislation, understanding what it means to me, then either supporting it or not. I find the screeching support and shrill demonization typical moronic behavior by the people who elect idiots.

If you disagree with this, not a problem.

Generally speaking, government programs end up restricting freedom and in some cases promote bias and bigotry. No matter what the intention, I can not support bigotry and I think institutional bigotry is a crime.

Government support of inequality and restriction of freedoms tends to be black and white (digital) - thus opinions have less merit. You usually end up defending the intent rather than the actual process.

"Any time we give our soverinity to some one else were going to get screwed..... Forcing EVERYONE into that is wrong and non of us will like it....."

That's what that total C U Next Tuesday Dick Armey says. He doesn't like Social Security, Medicare - basically screw you I'm okay. No compassion, just "I don't want to pay taxes because I make lots of money."

This is a total shite ideology, and it couldn't possibly work.

I LIKE Social Security and Medicare, damn it, and so does everyone who benefits from those programs. To hell with the radical right - these are social programs that work.

So does the FDIC, by the way - it's another reason why we aren't in another Great Depression.

Socialism with a capital S is obviously not a good system. But the other extreme is probably worse.

Isn't this the bottom line of the debate? Who takes care of Whom?

I am dealing with a family right now that doesn't want to deal with a belligerent mom. They want the state to deal with her instead of paying for it themselves and they have found a way to do so. I can understand that - but if they have the ability to care for her, why can't they? Its more like lazy and selfish. We have not always pawned our family off on others. It is nice to do that? sure. but why should you and I have to take care of someone elses issues financially?

What was the reason to create Social Security?? wasn't it to create jobs for younger people?



Why are they mutually exclusive? It sounds like capitalism is cruel and never socially responsible?

That is the bottom line between of the debate between total ideological extremes in this country, going back to Hamilton and Jefferson. And both extremes are totally foolish.

But that framing is only if you look at it ideologically rather than for the world as it is. If you look at the real world, the questions make much more sense.

Social Security isn't welfare, by the way, it's a public supplemental retirement program that we all pay into. Socialized medical insurance isn't welfare either.

Nick,
When did you get your social security card? It sounds to me like you do not know what it is about. I see it as we give the gov. money and they tell us how we can spend it if we get to the age where we are eligable, but that is only the tip of that iceburg. We hear that we can't get a job without the card, not true. They do not tell us that since we signed it we now have to have a drivers liscence and then register for the armed services, all that because the gov. tricked us into signing a document when we were not leagle signatories to that aggrement, meaning we have to be 18 or emancapated to do so. Every American pays taxes even if they did not pay income tax or s.s. that year. Every purchase we make has a tax on it, unless your in a non sales tax state, but we still pay gas tax alcohal tax, now smoking tax, property tax and profit tax. By the way, the American revolution started because the tax base was 15% and stamps were $0.25. While were on it what does $ mean? Certainly not what the U and S over it ment. One line threw the S means a differant thing than two.

Nick the foolish thing is not going back to Hamilton and Jefferson while we still might have a chance. And whats more foolish is thinking someone else other than you or your family has your 'best' interest, you know that is impossable, right? If ya don't please explain it to me so I can get a grasp of where your comming from, I do not have blind fath, I want to see it first, and then decide on whatever it is, KRIPES! we just went threw the bail out, you don't think we got screwed there? When no one in office, that we ellected (to protect our rights) even read the bill.... But you want to get slapped with another one? Really? Maybe they will do it right this time is insanity. Get rid of them before they get rid of you.