It's certainly not something I *want* to believe, Knife, but I just don't see any way not to believe it.

Michael:

Well, I suspect that the reason they don't have the consumer mentality is only because they've had to make do with so little for so long. They'll catch up with us very quickly; we weren't always like this either.

It's good to know that they're taking an interest in sustainable practices, but unfortunately from what I've read they're building dirty coal-firing power plants that use old technology as quickly as they can to keep up with the rising demand. They can't afford to build clean ones, so they do it the cheapest way they can.

Now, I can't begrudge them wanting to have the first-world living conditions we enjoy. But the price of that is using up resources just like we're doing here, and it's more expensive to do that sustainably - if it's even possible, which it isn't. In other words there's not enough of everything to go around for everyone in the world to live the way we do, in fact there's not even enough for us to continue living the way we do indefinitely.

As you well know.

No question, but ultimately we're all in this together. If we're going to reduce CO2 emissions globally, the most efficient way is to clean up the dirtiest power plants. That's why a carbon-trading scheme in which we end up buying Chinese (and Indian, etc.) pollution credits is a good idea.

Name these two cities:

A)

B)

The winner gets a date with Nick.

I think its obvious that man contributes to the rise in C02 and that this has an effect of raising the earth's temp. The question is how much the contibution is.

As previously stated the earth has gone through many cycles. One can find sea life fossils in the midwest at so many layers down.

Even with the fastest super computers modeling the earths climate is soooooo complicated, so many variables for such a dynamic model. I honestly believe we can't do it yet. Just think about all the contibuting factors... even solar flares & solar wind can have an effect.

But it is the right thing to try to contol c02 emissions. Only good can come from it.

Rich

So true on the products from China and not to mention melamine in the wheat glutten, come to think of it are they getting the wheat glutten fro m the wheat the US and Canada sells to them.

Its well known about the depletion of fisheries and that managing them works ie the Grand Banks but this is from over fishing.


What I found interesting is the melting of glaciers and the Cities and farm lands that use the water run off. Looks like there will be wars over fresh water again instead of oil.

Rich

Beijing and LA (on one of those days that happen once or twice a year) By the way, didn't say the Chinese aren't big polluters as a nation. I was attempting to allude to cultural differences - poverty breeds frugality - that even used to be a part of American life in our Grandfathers' days, because there was nothing to waste. The industrialist of every culture are by far the biggest polluters, profiteers, and destroyers. Making money off of global warming? :rolleyes:

Clean power and green construction, don't necessarily cost more, and the ultimate costs of conventional systems are deceptive. Money isn't the measure for everything, much as it has been pounded into the brains of most...

The point is really that the model of the industrial revolution doesn't work, no matter where it's done, and spending time and energy and money on models that do work is what will ultimately turn things around for a balanced world that is more sustainable.

The problem with you doom-sayers is that you do not take into account new technologies that'll be created by any needs that arise from any changes.

You doom-sayers base your doom 'n gloom scenario on things never changing.

No takers on the quiz to win a date with Nick?

ExcelAV, I'm afraid you're stringing together a lot of things that aren't relevant - which is probably why you've come to a lot of illogical and baseless conclusions. My suggestion is to do some reading rather than just saying it's all The Man.

It's hard to know where to start answering your post, but probably the best place is with your idea about running out of gas being BS. It isn't. But what happened in the '70s was an Arab oil embargo, which is different from running out.

Jimmy Carter's main response was to try and get us to conserve energy. Things like refrigerators became way more efficient, in fact even cars are a lot more efficient - except that they're bigger and we add second refrigerators, etc.

At the time, cars were smaller too. But then we said Screw it and became SUV Land.

You're right that people get research money for studying climate change. But if there were a research scientists' lobby, it would be the size of a quark next to the size of all the other lobbies for industries that stand to lose if we reduce CO2 production. The oil industry runs our country! Our entire society is dependent on cheap oil. The Man is making a lot of money doing what we're doing now - using lots of oil, driving big cars, etc.

You're wrong that we're not going to run out of oil. We are, although nobody knows when. (Actually we won't run out, we'll just run out of oil that's easy and cheap to get to.)

zumbido, have I mentioned that you need to read The End of Oil? Don't worry, it's not a liberal manifesto - it's a serious look at what's going on in the world. You can't just assume that technology will get us out of this mess. It's likely to help, but the issues are complicated and far reaching.

In the news today they reported that bio fuel is driving up the cost of corn and eventually food. we may be in a little to deep. Ford is introducing the flex fuel cars. Bio fuel will cause a shortage for at least 5 years. What happens when there's no rain to grow the corn?

"What happens when theres no rain to grow the corn?"

No buckets o' popcorn at the movies?

We are ants.

Gore blew it when he had the power.
His current hot air only warms it more.

Bush doesn't have a clue.
I can't blame a skunk for smelling like a skunk.

Let's talk billions of years...
Looks like we are pretty cool today.

http://www.scotese.com/climate.htm
http://mysite.verizon.net/mhieb/WVFossils/ice_ages.html

Maybe we are headed for a steamy dinosaur time, or maybe things will chill again.

I've got my parka and my shorts at the ready.